Music

TOS,

Nice to see you are back.

Hope you enjoyed your time away.

Any news on your furs?

Linda

No news Linda but thanks for asking.

For the record I have no interest in domainating anyone. But I find it unbelievable that people think everyones opinion is of the same value. I will be first to admit I often get it wrong...but on Art it is my profession and that is what I am bringing to the table here. If we were arguing who was a better guitarist then I wouldnt have a clue so would accept the opinion of someone who could play.

And I am not judging people on their musical taste...just questioning if one band is better than another. I think some pop transcends the immediate and some as OFF says is whimsical. Some is pretensious. I dont know why we are having a discussion if we cant argue our case; seems pointless. If all music is equal then fine. But we all know in our heart if hearts that it isnt. Its only because you think its rude of me to suggest that there can be such an elitist thing as good taste.

i just want to affirm that none of my comments, rants or arguments are ever personal. I could quite happily argue with a PETA supporter and not get personal. However I dont think that many of them can. I think if you start from an idefensible viewpoint then there is a tendency to become aggressive. I may jokingly parody agression from a humorous angle but its not real. You have to realise that this is the British way.

PETA logic is very sound if you do not destroy it at root with the first error.

Animals and rights are an absurd notion in biological terms. Rights are not ever consciously contemplated by animals(apart from us). Rights are therefore only relevant in the most basic "functional" sense. The right to eat, reproduce, excrete etc are elemental to all bilogical organisms. This involves death for some, life for others. So all one can say in ethical terms is that as "sentient" beings (and personally I think sentience is "speciesist" claptrap) we can discuss our lordship over animals and this is morally wrong as it suggests superiority rather than difference.

A leopard has the right to kill an animal or a human because it can and will feed itself and its cubs if it does.

A human has the right to do the same as we are no different.

Only someone who thinks we are gods would even think otherwise. And that means we are the giver of rights? Crap.

Black and white Tryxie sorry. We are just animals. Nature is very black and white. In fact, black is white, evil is good, etc etc. Nature is amoral.

Anything that suggests otherwise is surely just human intellectual conceit.

I am in the eyes of nature not superior to a leopard or a woodlouse. In fact one could argue that the woodlouse is superior because he has been here longer. We think nothing of squashing a woodlouse. I do. It upsets me because I do it sometimes without a reason; I worry about it....but my kitten doesnt.

Humans care because it necessary socially for us to and we have transferred that into caring for sustainability of animal availability. This has recently manifested itself as an abhorration of urban alienation from the reasons we care. Hence animal rights. Its quite bizarre to most people on the planet, and only has credence because of the dominance of city dwellers and their media over the rest of us.

So I have no respect for PETAs argument because it is false from premise base.

I have slightly more sympathy for fans of Green day as I am still open to someone suggesting they have some significance in the greater scheme of things: ie if its Art, or has cultural significance beyond commerce, then tell me why.

The yakut drum dance has lasted 10 000 years and yet few in the west know about it because you cant sell it. They know of green Day in yakutia...some may even like it...but its like chewing gum next to the raw steak of a caribou. Ones is a nice treat...the other necessary for life.

But among all the 99% of crap pop music there is 1% that is more than chewing gum and all I am saying is if we are going to discuss music in any meaningful way we have to set a criteria for assessing it to get at the truth of what is important and what is pulp. My mind is open as to the 1%

...and perhaps I have seriously underestimated Green day....there is certainly a difference between them and S club 7.

But me suggesting that it may not be as significant and "good" as some is partly tongue in cheek to get us to discuss what constitutes good rather than an insult to anyone who likes them. You dont see me and furelli getting our hair off with each other or taking offence. Me and tyxie are always disagreeing but I take on much of what she says.

So pleeeeeese dont get offended but argue back to all my crap rationally otherwise I will think I have won.

Or we can all go on thinking that we are all equal in terms of all areas of knowledge/taste. Taste is subjective; good taste isnt. Quite clearly mozart is superior to s club 7. It may be apples and oranges; but it not apples and trucks. Music is all fruit. Not all fruit is good(just a metaphor...not a big deal) but sometimes a good apple is better than a bad orange and vice versa.

What I am saying is that discussion must have a point and that point is to arrive at truth. That may mean I am OFTEN wrong....but hopefully it will prompt thought and arrive at truth. Just dont hold up a mouldy old orange and say its great. You Americans may be happy not to offend people by saying "wow thats lovely" when quite clearly to me its not and I aint playing that game....I reserve the right to say its mouldy if its green (course I may be wrong and its just a bit of green pigmentation from being underipe)Maybe green day are the greatest musicians on earth but you have to back up why, and along objective criteria.

Hey folks

Thanks for that little comment, ToS - think it needed to be said before things got out of hand. I have no doubt that your comments were never intended as malicious, just as an opinion. But it kinda gets me to thinking that this thread was neither about music as art, nor was it about who's music is better than everyone else's - it was just about who likes what. Now, I am not trying to put the proverbial boot in or get up anyone's nose (ok, a mix of metaphors here), just stating my opinion, whether it is "informed" or not.

BTW, i do agree that Mozart is better than S Club 7 - but the girls of S Club 7 are better looking!!

Unclejoe

unclejoe420;

Depends on who is playing Mozart.

Check out Hillary Hahn, Annie-Sophie Mutter, Laura St. John, Ofra Harnoy or Jaqueline du Per in her prime.

There are many very fine female singers now with equally fine physiques singing Mozart, Bach and others these days.

OFF

But it kinda gets me to thinking that this thread was neither about music as art, nor was it about who's music is better than everyone else's - it was just about who likes what.

Exactly! Thank you for that reminder.

Ah now youre talking a whole different ball game.

S club 7 are better looking than Mozart but nowhere near as good looking as Girls Aloud or Beyonce or Gwen Steffani.

Ah now youre talking a whole different ball game.

 

S club 7 are better looking than Mozart but nowhere near as good looking as Girls Aloud or Beyonce or Gwen Steffani.

Almost forgot about those girls - good point, ToS!!

Gavin Rossdale's one lucky....... blighter

Okay, I never took the time to make my list... so here goes, in no order of importance:

My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult

Meat Beat Manifesto

Cabaret Voltaire

(old) KMFDM

Pitch Shifter

Scorn

Godflesh

Fear Factory

16 Volt

Portishead

Kendra Smith

Moby

Karma To Burn

Otep

Grand Theft Audio

A Split Second

Bauhaus

(early) Love & Rockets

Pop Will Eat Itself

Coil

Severed Heads

Sheep on Drugs

Mazzy Star

Nine Inch Nails

Chemical Brothers

Dust Brothers

Nitzer Ebb

Sister Machine Gun

(local band, now defunct, and mates) Martyr Colony & Scream Bloody

Murder

(local band and mates) The Sailing

Doubting Thomas

Nick Cave

Tom Waits

Chris Isaak

X

Pigface

Ministry

The Revolting Cocks

The Young Gods

Sisters of Mercy

A Perfect Circle

Tool

(old) Madonna

Marlene Dietrich

Billy Holiday

Joshphine Baker

Patsy Cline

(some, not all) Johnny Cash - no other country though

ELO

(early -prior to the symbol shit) Prince

The Time

Missing Persons

Duran Duran

Depeche Mode

Vivaldi

Delibes

Verdi

Mozart

Ravel

Puccini

Beethoven

Bach

I know I've forgotten a ton, but that list in long enough and gives an idea of what I like. I am sure more than half of you have no idea who many of those bands are!

Wow what a list, and so varied. Some I have heard of, more I haven't. I see a few bands which ToS said he liked in there.

ELO ????????????????

And quite a few I am not familiar with. A classic case of me bowing to Miss Ts superior knowledge and I heed her recommendations as quite clearly she has good taste

No in all seriousness I did initially start out on this music thread to get some meaningful discussion going and I am sorry if I offended anyone in the process.

Tryxie has suggested a thread on the nature of opinion, taste etc and that may be interesting.

I also posted a joke which nobody has picked up on which demonstrates that infomed opinion can be inaccurate. It concerns an irish navvy and a group of archeaologists....check it out. Its my way of saying that many of you have a point when you attacked my premise!!!!!

ELO though.........

ps my girlf says you missed out Gene Loves Jezebel Miss T

This thread has been a hoot! I've loved reading these posts. I wish I could join in here but I hate music.

Chubby

in all fairness, i must say the ELO is a leftover from my childhood days... my parents loved them and it sunk in there. they played the first live show i ever saw, with the whole family mind you, back in 1980! i have no other excuse....

never really did Jean Loves Jezebel... if you can hear it on the radio, i am less likely to listen to it or own it myself. always been an underground, electronica, industrial kinda gal at heart! i have dated a handful of guys in bands, local bands and friends... so was very much the groupie/band girl.

Now my age cannot be denied!

MissT I had to go down to the bottom 20% before I saw a name I had even heard of!

Chubby,

You hate music? That must mean you don't dance, either. Oh, I would be so sad without that in my life.

Linda

Linda... you is lucky.

I reckon that of all the bands/composers listed in preceding pages less than 15% readily fall into my consciousness. Damn.. I gotta get out more *grin*

And hear more classical concerts LOL

I take it I'm the only one here who likes The Bonzo Dog Doodah Band then? The tune "Canyons of your Mind" is a pretty funny song!!

Unclejoe

Unclejoe420;

I can't help but think of "Uncle Joe and the Fish" when I see your monaker.

They weren't too bad either.

OFF

Country Joe. And then there was Richie Havens and Woodstock and Captain Beefheart; do you know how he got his name (alledgedly)?

did know that but forgot...how?

Who's is the best version of Venus in Furs by the way? I go with Christian Death.

It is possible not to like music...I find 90% of it nonsense that gets on my nerves too in terms of pop/rock/hop hop/jazz etc etc.

Its the 10% in all genres that I like but you dont get on the radio.

Music should move you. That means its Art. Not lyric wise...I mean the sound should make you affected emotionally.

 

Music should move you. That means its Art. Not lyric wise...I mean the sound should make you affected emotionally.

That's why I like the music i like - not because of the lyrical content (although it is nice to be able to sing along to the odd tune or two), but because of how the music makes me feel.

Unclejoe

"Music should move you. That means its Art."

Now I must disagree with that. Queen just moves me to the radio to turn it off.

LOL. I completely agree Tryxie! But, I suppose, if it does emotionaly move you, it is some form of art.....right?

Well let's see...

The Flaming Lips

The Mooney Suzuki

The Strokes

Jet (new, not the 70s glam band)

The Clash

Social Distortion

Can't forget...

Springsteen

Stones

U2

CCR

Warren Zevon

Especially can't forget those bands from the Jersey Shore where I grew up...

Southside Johnny

Cats on a Smooth Surface

Glen Burtnick

John Eddie

Not to mention those bands from college...

George Thorogood & the Destroyers (I gave them one of their first, if not their first gig!)

The Hooters

Tommy Conwell

FLinFL

That is my assertion Foxy lady.

Queen are excellent musicians and one could argue a case for , say Bohemian Rhapsody being art. I am not though. I am moved to turn it off too but would still respect it over REM.

Now furlovin FL

My humble verdict on the Boss is that he's a great songwriter but a crap artist. No Bob dylan.

And you left off Doctor Feelgood off your list.

yes I saw george thorogood too. Not bad at all though not my type of thing....exciting though agreed...probably better live as were Nine Below Zero.

My favourite tracks of all time from a feeling point of view are "Starwalker" by Buffy St Marie (soldier blue maybe too) and Bela Lugosi's dead by Bauhaus. They touch my soul. Are unique too. Art.

Doesnt mean I dont appreciate other stuff; buts thats why I put those top of the tree.

So what'd be your top two and WHY? (To all)

Top two & why?

Impossible to do!!!!

Music for me is all about Mood & performance. I jus could not sit there & pick 10 let alone 2 as being favourites without changing my mind the following day & looking through the majority of posts here that may be the same for others?

Having said that if I wanted a bit of Nostalgia - Buzzcocks

Chill out - Doors

Bit of a dance - Oumou Sangare

Bit of a sing song - Frank Sinatra - so many classics!

Bit of devilment - AKA Trash the flat - Pogues So much energy from this band live it's unbelievable, they've just started touring again - so if there in a town near you!!!!

Bit of Deviance - AKA Piss the neighbours of - Tom Waits You can't beat a bit of Growl

Full on volume & wall of noise - Xmal Deutschland

No Brainer - The Monkees!

Doesn't quite answer your question Touch BUT there again Do you ever have a straight answer for anything?

PS We've agreed on a few things to date BUT I never did answer you on - Why do I like Green Day? - Gave one of the BEST Live performances & shows I've ever seen last year & YES I say SHOW because back in the day they couldn't hold a candle to some of the orignal bands from their genre BUT they sure can play. I understand your logic & reasoning about other bands BUT sometimes it's jus about the performance, leave all the other stuff at the door & jus enjoy the show & take the energy & feeling that it gives you - It's not always about the message