Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

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AKcoyote
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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby AKcoyote » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:28 pm

holmf,
I wonder what you mean by "Teslas don´t quite count as a normal EV" :?: If you are talking about price, yes the Tesla models S & X are rather expensive. When the Tesla model 3 enters the market in late 2017, that will change and there should at that time be several EV models available at relatively reasonable prices.

If you are referring to range on a charge, than yea, the Teslas with a 90 - 100 KWh battery pack do provide a much longer range of approximately 300 miles (482km) compared to the KIA Soul at about 93 miles (150km).

Availability of charging stations for EVs, as you mentioned, is currently the main limitation slowing the adaption of EVs. Here in the US it is slowly improving, but it will be some time before EV charging locations will be as common as petrol stations.

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DuFc85
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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby DuFc85 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:32 pm

Indeed, AKcoyote. I was mainly referring to range, which come at a price. :) It would perhaps be better to say that Teslas play in a league of their own, while Souls, Leafs, e-golfs, Zoes etc. play in a league beneath. :) If I drive carefully, I can squeeze about 110 miles out of my Soul, which is plenty for everyday use, especially now that there's a charging station at my job which is about 25 miles away from my home.

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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby paul2809 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:06 pm

i have no problem with EV cars and trucks how ever..
I would need it to drive of range of 400miles plus handle a high powered ham radio as well
via with a solar panel as well.
all I know is that the batteries that are in half electric/half gas are super uber expensive to replace right now
at this current time..
I suppose there would have to be a power converter to handle 70amps to 100amps at 12volts
with an alternator or something
similar.

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Worker 11811
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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby Worker 11811 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:44 pm

I like the idea of electric cars but I am also concerned that all they are really doing is concentrating pollution and fuel waste to the areas where electric generation plants and car factories are located. Plus, as Furless said, it's very inefficient. According to the figures that I remember from reading, only ten percent of the energy actually makes it to driving the wheels that push the car. The other ninety percent is wasted.

I think electric cars are good but, if you think for a second, all the people who live near factories and power plants will have to live with even more pollution because, instead of being distributed evenly at the point of use, (individual cars) it will be transferred back to the power plants that generate electricity and the factories that build the cars.

Electric cars don't necessarily mean that there will be less pollution. They only move the pollution around so that the more privileged people who can afford them won't see it but at the expense of the less privileged people who are forced to live near the industrial areas.

Don't get me wrong. I like electric cars. I just don't think that they are the solution to our energy and pollution problems that some people claim that they are. They can be PART of the solution but not the whole solution. Electric cars help us answer the question of pollution at the point of use but they don't address the question of pollution on the supply side of the equation.

How are we going to generate the energy we need without causing so much pollution?

As far as I am concerned, wind, solar and ocean power aren't going to do it. The money and efforts that governments are expending toward research and development of soar and wind power are largely wasted.

No matter how you slice it, solar power won't solve our energy problems because the sun doesn't shine at night. Neither does the wind blow all of the time.
We can't depend on solar or wind energy to supply our needs. Maybe they can be part to our energy solution but, in my opinion, no greater than 25% to 30%.

Where are we going to get the other 70% of our energy unless we burn fossil fuels? Zero-Point Energy? That is, at best, pseudoscience. Science fiction.

There is only one source of energy that I know of that can supply the amounts of power that we need. Atomic energy.

Ever since the days of The Manhattan Project during WW-II, we have done only two things with atomic energy: Make steam and blow things up.

If we use an atomic reaction to create heat and boil water to make steam which powers electric turbines, we put ourselves back in our original position where 90% of the energy is wasted. I also don't see how an atomic explosion can generate useful energy! ;)

If, after WW-II, our government had continued an atomic energy program on the scale of the Manhattan Project but, instead of trying to blow things up with atomic bombs, they concentrated on developing a way to produce safe and useful energy, we would not be in the predicament we are in, today.

Imagine if, instead of having electric power plants, there could be some kind of device, about the size of a refrigerator, in the basement of every home which could supply all of the heat and electricity that a family needs. Maybe factories could have generators the size of a railroad locomotive. Taken to its conclusion, maybe there could even be some device, the size of a suitcase, that could power our cars?

I don't know if these things could be true but neither does anybody else.
We don't know because, the only thing we have ever done with atomic energy is blow up Japan. STUPID!!!

If we had taken all that money we wasted and spent it on research to develop a safe and useful source of atomic energy, the world would be a different place!
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby AKcoyote » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:40 pm

paul2809 wrote:.... I would need it to drive of range of 400miles plus handle a high powered ham radio as well ...
You have a good point. Range anxiety is an issue for those who need a vehicle that can go over 350 miles between "re-fueling" stops. However there are a large number of people whose daily driving requirements are met with a vehicle that has a range of 150 miles or less before requiring recharging.

"Worker 11811 wrote: I am also concerned that all they are really doing is concentrating pollution and fuel waste to the areas where electric generation plants and car factories are located.
A valid concern, but electric vehicles can be recharged from a home solar or wind setup. Where I live wind power generation on a large scale is becoming quite common. While I cannot currently cite any proof, I have heard that several midwest coal fired power plants are almost totally idle due to the large amount of power generated by wind farms.

I am not sure where you got the info that electric vehicles are inefficient, but that is totally contrary to what I have seen. Yes there is some loss in recharging (about 5-8% I believe), but my operating cost with charging from the grid is running at approximately $0.066 per mile.

Worker 11811 wrote:There is only one source of energy that I know of that can supply the amounts of power that we need. Atomic energy.
I will take exception to that claim. Atomic energy is, as you stated, inefficient at producing electricity, AND creates massive amounts of highly radioactive waste that we have NO plans for recycling or proper disposal. Atomic energy in its current form is INSANE and creating massive hazards for the future.

Renewable energy (solar, wind, geothermal, wave, etc) can generate all the energy we need. The only factor that has not been properly addressed is energy storage to even out the spikes and dips between generation and load. There are currently areas of Germany where solar power (mostly residential) is providing ALL the energy they need.


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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby Worker 11811 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:14 am

When I say that electric vehicles may be inefficient, I am talking about the entire chain from the power plant, along transmission lines, substations and transformers through to charging the car's batteries, and sending that power to drive the wheels. Only about 10% of the energy derived from burning fuel at the power plant makes it to your car's wheels.

Yes, the car, itself is more efficient. Yes, gasoline engines are more inefficient.
What I was referring to is the fact that, for every unit of energy used to power an electric car, nine units worth of energy are wasted and all of the pollution is spewed out in the vicinity of the power plant which is hundreds of miles away from where we drive our cars. People who live near those plants may suffer for the sake of our convenience.

I do not believe we should use wind power for more than 30% of our electricity generation needs. This is because wind power is not constant. The fluctuations in wind can cause large swings in the power grid.

No matter how much wind power we have, there will always need to be traditional electric generators. People need electricity 24/7/365 but the wind does not blow all the time. When the wind dies down, we need to switch-in the generators. When the wind comes back up, we need to switch them out.

If you have too much of your supply from wind power, you will have brownouts when the wind dies down or you will have to dump that power to ground when the wind blows too hard. You will need electric generation plants to smooth out the hills and valleys.

If you get too much of your electricity from wind power, you will be constantly switching your generation plants on-line and off-line. That's a big hassle. It's excess wear and tear on the generators, starting and stopping them all the time. If the wind fluctuates too wildly, you will never be able to switch the generation plants on-line or off-line fast enough to keep the supply steady. Not even computerized transfer switches can keep up with the kinds of demands that we would put on them. Hundreds of megawatts or even gigawatts would have to be switched in or out on a moment's notice. I'm sure you understand what kind of switch gear is involved in that process. It doesn't happen in a matter of seconds. Yet, a few seconds of brownout or a few seconds of surge could throw the electrical grid into chaos.

Let me be clear. I'm ALL FOR wind and solar power, etc. It's just not reliable enough to supply all our needs. Not even if we use Pumped Storage Hydroelectric facilities.

I think it will be a good adjunct to our power generation needs but I don't believe it will ever replace electric power plants.

Now, for atomic power. There are two, intertwined problems: Fear and lack of research.

Fear occurs because 90% of our population knows little to nothing about atomic power beyond atomic bombs.

Lack of research occurred because, after The Manhattan Project ended in 1946, we essentially stopped major research on atomic energy. Virtually all our resources went into building bombs and nuclear fission plants.

This lack of research goes back to feeding public fear and creating a vicious cycle of fear and ignorance.

We should have been researching nuclear FUSION for all this time.

We have known about fusion since the 1920's.

Pinch devices (the heart of a nuclear fusion reactor) have been proposed since the 1930's but that work was curtailed because the powers-that-be wanted fission bombs instead.

In the 1940's, Enrico Fermi (one of the fathers of the atomic bomb) proposed the use of fusion to generate power but, again, he was too busy building bombs for The Manhattan Project.

The Manhattan Project ended in 1946, essentially stopping most, if not all, atomic research in the US. (However, we did continue to build atomic bombs!)

The tokamak reactor was proposed in the 1950's but never developed until the 1960's... In the U.K. (Project ZETA.) The U.S.S.R. actually built a working tokamak reactor in the 1960's, too. They just couldn't make it stable enough to sustain a reaction for more than a few milliseconds.

Research has continued, on and off for decades, in countries all over the world but it wasn't until 2007 that the Chinese built a tokamak reactor that remained stable for five seconds. They kept it running for 102 seconds in 2015 and generated 1 mega-amp of current.

If we had kept The Manhattan Project or something like it going after the war and continued to perform research on FUSION instead of making fission bombs, we would be decades ahead of where we are, now, and we might have even developed a workable, safe and clean source of atomic power.

By the way? Did you read where I said that the Chinese used a fusion device to generate one hundred million amps of electricity?

Why didn't we do this twenty years ago?

Why was it the Chinese who did it instead of Americans?

I'll tell you why. It's because most Americans' eyes glaze over and people begin to piss their collective pants and shiver in fear at the mere mention of the words "atomic" or "nuclear."

It shouldn't be that way!

Our collective world governments have been little more than a bunch of bumbling, fumbling retards when it comes to energy policy. If they had gotten ahead of the ball after WW-II ended, we probably wouldn't even be having a discussion like this.
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby AKcoyote » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:44 am

Worker,
What you apparently missed in my prior post is that there is a critical need for energy storage (batteries, super capacitors, or similar) in the use of renewable sources of energy generation to even out the spikes and dips in load & generation. Currently the only renewable energy source that is not intermittent is geothermal. There are a few projects being built that will use large arrays of lithium-ion battery packs to store electricity for use as needed.
http://www.teslarati.com/netherlands-ut ... wer-plant/
https://www.tesla.com/blog/addressing-p ... -powerpack

Yes, nuclear fusion does hold enormous potential for a clean power source, but the research is many years away from creating a sustained, safe, and reliable reaction. Current nuclear fission power generation is a disaster that is only possible because the government insures the operators. No sane insurer would ever consider insuring a fission plant.

As you stated, government stupidity and the lack of a properly thought out energy policy is to blame for much of the mess that is our current energy situation.

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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby Worker 11811 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:11 pm

Well... It is an election year. Isn't it? ;)

Somebody should go to one of Donald Trump's press conferences and ask him why China has a megawatt fusion reactor and a 22 gigawatt hydroelectric complex but the United States doesn't have either of those things.

I bet that would rattle a few cages! ;)

Yes, I understand about storing electricity. Unfortunately, batteries and supercapacitors just aren't robust and reliable enough. To be honest, the amounts of power that our electrical grid needs to supply are too great. I don't think we'll ever have a battery that can survive under those conditions.

If you've ever seen an electrical substation explode, you'll know it's a truly frightening experience. (I have seen one and it almost made me pee my pants! And it wasn't even a particularly large one!) I have a hard time believing that any kind of capacitor or battery could have that kind of capacity and be safe from explosion.

The only kind of storage system that is even close to viable would be pumped storage.
Even pumped storage isn't really viable for the kinds of demands we would place on them. Besides, they are a net consumer of power. Check the link I put in my post above.

I like solar and wind power and things like that but I just don't believe that they will be able to work under the conditions that people expect from them. Unless we come up with something new, we're going to be screwed.

I know that what I am proposing is a tall order but I truly don't see any other solution that even comes close.

If our collective governments, world wide, hadn't acted like a bunch of idiots for the last seventy years, we wouldn't be in such a predicament! :(
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

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Re: Anybody interested in electrically powered transportation

Postby AKcoyote » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:26 am

For those who think an electric car is no better than an upgraded golf cart, I provide the following link:
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s- ... able-hpwc/

A Tesla Model S P100D set a record for the 1/4 mile of 10.76 seconds and 122.36 mph.


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