Political Correctness

[Guest]

This posting is in line with FrBrGr new announcement and to protect the terminally stupid.

[ReFur]

Tryxie,

 

In many ways your opinions and mine are close. But, I am older and a mod. I wish I could add that I am wiser, but just can't add that one!

 

You can read my posts on the thread in question (The DIVA Katja post for those of you just reading about this.) I think as women, we probably have a different take on this than the guys.

 

But, no matter what our opinions are, we are part of a group. .. and, sometimes as a member of a group, things happen and positions are taken that we do not agree with. In fact, sometimes to the point we need to leave.

 

I hope that you can see the value of all of the rest of us and how much you mean to us, and overlook those few that offend you. Especially when you consider how seldom they are here.

 

I too, do not like what went down, and the Admins and mods understand why. But, I also respect Cookie and his organization. They have been a tremendous help to us in countless ways.

 

Being in the "Fur World" we need friends, we have too many enemies out there. Being friends means you support each other, even when you personally might have handled something differently.

 

And, I am confident this won't be repeated. If so many of our staff had not been gone it would not have happened.

 

It is worth noting to all the guys: If you want to communicate in a feminine personality, that is fine here. You just must be honest. It is the dishonestly that upsets the guys. They get their hopes up and get very upset when they feel like a fool. So, ... please don't.

 

Linda

[Guest]

Tryxie,

 

In many ways your opinions and mine are close. But, I am older and a mod. I wish I could add that I am wiser, but just can't add that one!

 

You can read my posts on the thread in question (The DIVA Katja post for those of you just reading about this.) I think as women, we probably have a different take on this than the guys.

 

But, no matter what our opinions are, we are part of a group. .. and, sometimes as a member of a group, things happen and positions are taken that we do not agree with. In fact, sometimes to the point we need to leave.

 

My decision to leaved the group was already made well before your post Linda, so excuse me if I decline the moderators offer of a gentle push. The fact the offer was made indicates to me I hit a nerve and they don't like it.

 

I hope that you can see the value of all of the rest of us and how much you mean to us, and overlook those few that offend you. Especially when you consider how seldom they are here.

 

It's not the people that bother me or their words, it's expected that we're going to have spats with one another, there are 1200 members here after all. You can't put that many people in a room and not expect something volatile.

 

I too, do not like what went down, and the Admins and mods understand why. But, I also respect Cookie and his organization. They have been a tremendous help to us in countless ways.

 

This of course is the same Cookie who was banned on Melody and who's site it was forbidden to mention, excuse me if I don't share your respect. To my mind this is a case of keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But this is FrBrGr's decision not mine and is not the issue here.

 

Being in the "Fur World" we need friends, we have too many enemies out there. Being friends means you support each other, even when you personally might have handled something differently.

 

And, I am confident this won't be repeated. If so many of our staff had not been gone it would not have happened.

 

This particular incident might not be repeated but the underlying ethos still remains, it pervades the whole group for as long as bigotry and discrimination is supported by the administration.

 

Maybe of the Mods had dealt with the matter faster it might not have reached this point, but Cookie couldn't wait that long. He had to jump up and down squealing like a silly girl at seeing her first willy. Once the matter was out in open forum it was anyone's to pick up and I did.

 

My post was banned, citing it as a personal attack on Cookie, was his attack on Katja any less personal? Anyway intolerance was supported and right thinking was discarded. I fought your corner, it's your turn now. If I remain on this forum it means I accept the policy here, and I don't. I value my integrity more.

 

It is worth noting to all the guys: If you want to communicate in a feminine personality, that is fine here. You just must be honest. It is the dishonestly that upsets the guys. They get their hopes up and get very upset when they feel like a fool. So, ... please don't.

 

I don't care how much sugar coating you put on this with your soft words Linda it's still sh1t, and I'm not eating it!

 

I've said it once, I'll say it again. If they're not emotionally strong enough to be here without their mommies they should be on the Disney site. It's not this sites duty to be an emotional crutch for men with fragile egos.

 

And whilst we and the Gender variants have to be open and honest, what do we get in return? Blank profiles, that barely contain a username. How do we know that the supposed male we chat to is "fit for purpose", " of merchantable quality" and not some dickless wonder who's hung like a hamster. None!! that's what assurance we have. If you are going to have rules, then they apply equally to everyone. You cannot just single out one group for special attention, that's verging on a fascist policy.

 

Tryxie

[ReFur]

Tryxie,

 

I am not certain if I understood you correctly, but if you think that I was speaking for anyone else. I wasn't.

 

I am simply speaking as someone who doesnt want to lose your membership. That is all.

 

Linda

 

PS Tryxie I just re-read your post. In no way, did I mean to give you a "gentle push." In fact, my intent is just the opposite. Haven't we communicated enough for you to know I wouldn't do that?

[Ravens8]

If I remain on this forum it means I accept the policy here, and I don't. I value my integrity more.

 

Hey Tryxie, don t go, you are valuable

I cant agree with your above statement. Maintaining a personal agenda whilst remaining in a group which doesn't necessarily hold all the same views as your own does much more for personal integrity than cutting and running.

 

It's the only way we can change things we dont like. By subtly throwing spanners into the works from within a group rather than from the outside.

 

My creed is, Lift your head and someone shoots at it, so I'm dipping below the parapet again. bye. (So dont waste your shots everybody)

 

Oh! just one more thing, I think you genuinly misinterpreted Lynda's post, I didn't get that message at all from what she said.

 

I'm gone now - (nothing more scary than an angry woman)

[FrBrGr]

Tryxie, I hate to see any member leave the Den, for whatever reason. If you leave (and I hope you don't!) you won't be the first who has picked up the proverbial toys and left because they didn't get their way or I didn't see eye-to-eye with their opinions, attitudes or ideologies. So be it . . . (!) If that is all the Den has meant to you, then I won't give you a gentle push, but offer you the same open, unimpeded door I have offered to every one else who felt justified in just leaving because they disagreed with Den policy.

 

Your view of my action here is a rather simplistic one, and based on what I see is a tremendous personal bias, and relies little on fact. For example . . .

 

This of course is the same Cookie who was banned on Melody and who's site it was forbidden to mention, excuse me if I don't share your respect. To my mind this is a case of keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But this is FrBrGr's decision not mine and is not the issue here.

 

True, Cookie and Dragon were banned from Melody, and no one was allowed to even mention their websites, much less link to them. However, this was because of a personal matter between the former owner of Melody and Cookie and Dragon. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fur community. It was a personal vendetta that I always tried to repair. Cookie and Dragon were always open to do that; Fuzzywol was not. Talk about integrity! Where was it there? In short, your venom was misdirected. You should never indict someone without knowing the facts! It is, in fact you who is "jump(ing) up and down squealing like a silly girl at seeing her first willy . . . "

 

As for his attack on Katja, how can anyone say it was "personal" in the way you have suggested? It wasn't personal - He was just relating facts. After having reviewed his evidence, I can assure you, they were facts. As for intolerance, when it comes to this particular subject, I have had it with the intolerance argument! It is weak and baseless! I have stated my position, and I needn't do it again.

 

Again, Tryxie, if you must leave, then leave. I just hope it's for more responsible reasons than the ones you've stated above.

 

As for everyone else - especially our newer members - Things like this happen from time to time in every community. As for the Den, there must be something about this time of year. Maybe it's post-holiday anxiety. Last year about this time was the last time we had one of these bru-ha's. Here's hoping it will be at least another year before we have another one.

 

Now, then - Can we get back to the business at hand, i.e., our mutual love of fur . . . ?

[ReFur]

NOTE: This post was made before I realized FrBrGr had made his post. Linda

 

Tryxie,

 

I am taking off my "mod" hat here and putting on my "Mom" hat.

 

Part of becoming an adult, whether you are a woman or a man, is learning that there are times that you must stand up for what you believe in and fight for your principles.

 

I do understand this. I have been in this position. ... too many times, in fact. Maybe that is why I feel like you leaving is such a loss for me. I can relate to you. I love your spirit and your wit, ... I love your "spunk"

 

But, as you get older and you look back, you will realize there were times that the friendships you threw away were more valuable than being right.

 

As someone who cares whether or not you are here, please realize that being with people who do care is important, too. Don't throw us away because you got your "nose out of joint," so to speak. If you do, it means that the very tolerance you speak of is not there. That is hypocrisy, too.

 

What you say does matter, but like me, this is not your site and you may have to simply disagree with certain things. That is tolerance, too.

 

Please re-read my original post and give me the benefit of the doubt that it was written by someone who really wants to see you around. AND, NO ONE had ANY input in my doing the post or its content.

 

Tryxie, .. another thing: who else will be able to talk circles around TOS?

 

But, seriously. All I can do is offer you my concern and tell you that you do matter, to me and many other members.

 

I hope you reconsider.

 

"Mom"

[White Fox]

Tryxie...

One of the things that members do not know is how things work here.

For instance, we saw that a member was posting under two names, and were considering what was taking place for quite some time before there were any posts about it here.

 

Possibly we should have reacted one way or another sooner. But remember that we are just ordinary people like you and others you know. We always do our best to try to make this place the best home that we can for every member here. And I mean EVERY member who will play within the rules. But, believe me that can be really hard.

 

I hope that you will decide to stay. I know that you requested I do one thing for you and indeed I will do it if you do not change your mind, but I am hoping that you will.

 

White Fox

Admin

[Worker 11811]

Tryxie:

 

I get the impression that you believe that "Katja's" posts were stopped because he was a person who liked to cross-dress or had a transgender identity.

 

If this is what you believe then I can say, without a doubt, that your worries are completely unfounded. "Katja" was not censored because he was pretending to be a girl. "Katja" was censored because he was being DECEPTIVE.

 

He was already registered on the forum under another username. He re-registered under the name "Katja" and didn't tell anybody who he really was. Furthermore, he LIED about his true identity.

 

90% of the time, when people do things like this the only reason is to stir up trouble among other members. This kind of behavior is not tolerated here. In fact, it is explicity prohibited in the Fur Den Code of Conduct

 

>> Fur Den Code of Conduct <<

 

See SECTION 1 : PART A : Item vi

Please do not post ... Messages that are designed to defraud others. Associated with this is misrepresenting who, or what, you as a member of this community, are.

 

"Katja" broke the rules. "Katja" paid the price. It is as simple as that.

 

I'm sorry if you feel upset about this situation but, be assured, it didn't happen because somebody here didn't like "Katja's" appearent lifestyle choice. If you feel upset enough to leave the Fur Den, I'm sorry. Nobody here intended to upset you or anybody else. I urge you to take some time and think about it for a while.

 

We'll leave the porch light on for you.

 

P.S. by White Fox. Thanks Worker for bringing this out. We would NEVER downgrade anyone here for their sexual preference, cross dressing, etc. This was simply a matter of honesty! We do our level best to keep this site honest and always will. This was a decision based on honesty and absolutely nothing else. Unfortunately this got into the open before the member replied to a private question from us regarding the situation or the situation would have remained in private.

W

Edited December 28, 2006 by Guest

[furmylove]

This is why I almost never post and just lurk here...

 

nuf said...

 

FML

[White Fox]

Love:

I am sure that if you have been lurking that you will realize that what Worker says is exactly the truth. The rules here are very easy to follow. They pretty much say "Don't hurt anyone". "Be Honest". And "Don't post XXX".

 

I am sure that you would likely always follow these guidelines, and if you do you will love posting here and will seldom have any problems. Indeed we would certainly love to hear from you more often.

 

The rules are made so people like you can feel free posting and not the other way around.

 

I hope that all can see that.

W

[Ravens8]

"Don't hurt anyone". "Be Honest". And "Don't post XXX".

 

Hmmmm....White fox, do you think you could post this gem to our respective governments.

 

(Just sat for five minutes trying to link this post to fur topic. Cant think of a way, so I'm posting anyway.)

 

Except has anyone got a pic of Bush and Blair in fox coats, embracing each other and declaring to the world "We want peace, love and understanding for all"? (uggh can't find my old hippy headband, I know it's around here somewhere)

[Guest]

Tryxie:

He was already registered on the forum under another username. He re-registered under the name "Katja" and didn't tell anybody who he really was. Furthermore, he LIED about his true identity.

 

Well I'm guilty of that as well. So sue me. I have a second identity here.

I masqueraded as Bernadette the Bear to tease Earandil and defraud him of a fur coat. Which I might add he still hasn't sent me.

 

I need counciling and emotional support for the deprivation he has caused me.

[FurLoverinFL]

TT wrote...

 

I need counciling and emotional support for the deprivation he [ToS] has caused me.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

 

FLinFL

[ozfurlova]

Well I'm guilty of that as well. So sue me. I have a second identity here.

I masqueraded as Bernadette the Bear to tease Earandil and defraud him of a fur coat. Which I might add he still hasn't sent me.

 

I need counciling and emotional support for the deprivation he has caused me.

 

Anyone else getting a feeling of travelling around in circles ???

 

[i'll apologise to the mods in advance for potentially stepping on toes & possibly throwing fuel on the fire...]

 

TT, you get cranky at Katja being dumped for measures you deem are unfair, then come right out and admit you're doing the same thing, THEN get the sulks and threaten to leave ??? Sounds to me like finding out you're about to be fired from a job and attempting to steal the thunder by resigning first

 

(again, sorry mods - keep up great work)

[Guest]

Nobody is who they seem on the net. The fact that many of us choose to retain a degree of anonymity necessitates the building of an alter ego.

 

We are masked here, many of us anyway.

 

This sometimes involves a degree of deception.

 

Am I bothered that a nineteen year old guy who wants to be a nineteen year old girl wants to pretend he is? Not at all. Whoever we talk to in pm we should remember that things may not always be as they seem. I have been involved in some heady sexual exchange with both male and females where we divulge fantasies etc. This Katja is doing no different.

 

Probably they are too shy to come back now anyway. But do I feel upset for anyone misled into thinking this person was a girl? Do I hell. If they are here for dating that is wrong. In fact, many women...including my girlfriend...will not join BECAUSE they think that there are people here who may "stalk" females members.

 

So its those who were "after" Katja as a potential girlfriend that I have no sympathy for....they should go on a dating site surely?

 

Cookie has trans gender members on his site forum so it is worth remembering that he is NOT anti TV/TG either.

 

So its the deception thing it boils down to.

 

And deception is something that can have many faces. Many of them are harmless, fun, part of fantasy. Some of them can have value in protecting people. But yes, others can be betrayal.

 

Is Katja involved in a betrayal deception? Is he/she?

 

In other words, have they come here claiming to be someone with the intent purpose of betrayal? For example, are they a PETA mole?

 

I doubt it.

So they have come for a bit of teasing, and to make themselves feel like a woman. Big deal....anyone taken in and think they are talking to a real girl and think they have a chance of a relationship through a site such as this could be dangerous. As I have said...this mentality could represent a real problem to real women here. And if they are taken in do I feel sorry for them ? No....most sensible men would think "damn I have been suckered!" and laugh it off. And if that alone makes them angry and horrified it is because they have issues with tg/tv and that makes them gender prejudiced. As I have said before...a forum which is about the appreciation of fur , is not the realm of anyone who is intolerant in any way of others.

 

So...Tryxie...don't leave....I share your concerns of prejudice, but the mods have said that this is not the issue and I believe them.

 

Cookie....your concern may or may not be justified and thankyou for the alert.

 

Katja.....there are many tv/tg friendly people here so if you want to be a girl stay! As long as your intention is not to deceive for purposes of confidence trickery, there is no problem.

 

 

Now what is the problem?

[White Fox]

Thanks all. These last few posts have pretty much summed this up.

 

We will NEVER knowingly treat anyone badly in any way here due to so called "Sexual Orientation". I say so called as I am not sure if anyone truly understands what that term means.

 

It is unfortunate that this blew out of proportion, but we cannot change that now. I can assure you that all of our staff here will do their best to keep this from happening again. The dedication of these folks is tremendous, and the one thing I can assure everyone of is that they will do everything within their power to keep the site moving with no one getting hurt, etc. Folks, please realize that the dedication to the members of this site constantly amazes me!

 

Hopefully we can move on now with all members participating.

 

W

[Guest]

I hear yer Tryxie, the whole Katja is she isn't he should have been left to the mods to deal with behind closed doors & am with you on that matter, if people have a problem or percieve a problem then they should jus use the PM function & let the powers that be make the decision.......

 

As for the rest, not my call to comment but I will say I understand your frustration & sense of injustice at being the only one to be censored here, been there meself, so I know how the message can come across at times.... If I read you right I think you get my drift...?

 

Well that's enough said in public, I know how protectice & tectchy some people can be If you go Tryxie then fair play to you, it's your call, personally I'd hope you take a step back & stay in the shadows for a bit like the rest of us here, after all you don't have to drop all your friends if you fall out with one or two?

 

Take care

 

Furelli

[Mr Barguzin]

Ya know folks?? Sometimes I sit back and read posts/topics and can't help but wondering.... "Is it any wonder this planet is in the state it is in?"

 

I look at this current kerfuffle and can't help but wonder about the mental state of us all .... cause in one way or another, we all contribute to the effect of taking a molehill and making it a damned chasm. And yes folks, that includes those who have posted here and at other topics relating to this matter... and those who have sat back and nodded sagely or laughed and carried on regardless at the childishness of it all.... or guests who have popped back to see what new fuel has been thrown onto the flame.

 

Gawd... is he mixing metaphors or what... and just what the hell does he mean?

 

Good point... and question

 

ANSWER: There are ways to do things and there are ways that help the situation not one iota.... and what has gone before is definitely a case of the latter. In fact, it might cost us all a hell of a lot more than we can see at the moment. I can't see into the future.... No-one can with any surety, despite complex mathematical and scientific equations.

 

What can be said is that there is a possibility that two folks have left and maybe more, plus those guests who may have thought at one time or another to join our "family".

 

Everyone may be mentally congratulating themselves on their behavior as being that of fair minded individuals. I see it more as sheep mentality with a few noted exceptions.

 

There is a rule that applies when one buys something "Caveat Emptor" - "Let the buyer beware." That applies online and in real life. It applies to goods and services and also PEOPLE. Now if you are shopping for love online, this definitely applies. The anonymity that the net provides cuts both ways..... so the bloke who is 6' 4" and 220 is actually 4' 6' and 210 whilst Blondie is not 36-24-36 but Bluey who is a bloke 6' 4" and 150 and that redhead isn't 39-22-34, but actually Grannie who is..... the mind boggles.

 

Some of us know who we are and so remain that person both off and online (whilst still hiding behind a moniker) whilst others are still trying to find out just who they are, and if that means that they hide behind a false name or description, well it says more about our level of acceptance, understanding and tolerance than it does about them when one sees what has happened here.

 

In quite a few countries there is an expression: A person is innocent unLESS proven guilty.. yes I said 'unless', not 'until' because until immediately implies that the person IS guilty. Hence why worry with the trial at all if one is so certain of the fact. (that'll have a couple of lawyers on me back *sigh*) remember... it is Presumed innocent, not presumed guilty... and nor is it assumed.

 

I have not yet seen the evidence and probably won't, nor do I really want to see it. All that I know is that I did spend time in this place's chatroom with Katja and nothing untoward happened to me. Was actually an interesting conversation. If I have been fooled, I have been fooled.... but I know I didn't waste my time with her as it was enlightening on a couple of areas. I was looking for nothing other than a chat, and we had a pleasant one.

 

There is something about arbitrary decisions that I have never liked: the fact that they ARE arbitrary and usually ill conceived and enacted without any thought about future consequences for that QUICK FIX. Historically there have been many quick fixes... and we are still suffering the consequences of them, for those that applied the quick fix were thinking not of the future, but of the present and the immediate future..... That is to say if today is 29/12/2006 they thought of no further ahead than 29/03/2007, NOT 29/12/2010. Short sightedness is not the preserve of the myopic or Pollies, but we all suffer from it daily.

 

When this matter was first raised, I thought it strange as there were several logical reasons that i could think of for such an occurrence. However, Wiser heads prevailed and so we now have this result. Ah well, what do I know?