Flags of our Fathers

[Guest]

I watched this movie the other night, a little fur, but that's not the point. It's a movie about what is probably the most iconographic photo of the 20th century. It's not for the faint of heart and weak of stomach. I paused the movie to go and wretch. But it is a movie to be seen!!

 

So next time you are queuing impatiently for your newspaper and there's a doddery old man in front of you or a woman for that matter, there were combat nurses on Iwo Jima. Spare a thought, he might be that Marine or that Nurse, or in the British case the ferry pilot flying much needed aircraft in from Canada or that American who lied about his nationality to get into a fight that wasn't his. They walk amongst us, in ever decreasing numbers.

 

For my part I know little of the US Pacific Campaign, I had an uncle in Burma, one doing Russian and Malta convoys, one in North Africa, latter Italy and France, and my father plucked off the beach at Dunkirque at the tender age of 16. We ask an awful lot of our youth in hard times. It was always a fascinating time at family reunions, listening to the adventures, suitably sanitised for mixed company and children. I suspect the reality bore little resemblance.

 

So Memorial Day, Commemoration Day, Remembrance Day, by what ever name you know it, is every day, not just once a year.

 

"When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say,

For Their Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today"

 

Right I'll try and shut up now and get on with my Sabbatical

[Ravens8]

Hi Tryxie T

 

My dad was at Dunkirque too. He never once spoke a single word to me about it, despite my eager boyish questions,

 

It's only now, with him gone and me as an adult, do I realise that his silence said it all.

 

Thoughtfull Post TT. Thanks

 

Happy new year, and thanks to those who's sacrifices meant we can all enjoy 2007

[Guest]

Good thoughts Tryxie; we must never forget those who gave us the liberty that is under threat from the same mentality either.

 

My great uncle wiped out a german machine gun post because he had seen the horrors that his fellow troops had not seen. He was a sergeant, and was decorated as no one else was willing to take the risk, as they were continually questioning why they were there. When they got to Aushwitz they knew why.

 

Of course it is not always right to side with your country through everything.

 

The flag must stand for some altruism. Patriotism is not altruistic, and at the moment I spit on my own flag for waht New labour have made it represent.

[Guest]

I didn't intend for this to be a them and us post. I believe every nation has the right to honor those who served their country and remember. They all did so believing they were right, its the victors and history that allocate blame, but to some extent all are guilty.

 

Serving ones country is a great ideal, till the first shot is fired then you're fighting for your life, all because some dumb ass politician said so. All sides suffer this. Wars bring out the best and worst in all men. Lets try and remeber the best, and learn from the worst.

 

Now is a time for reconcilliation not recrimination.

 

This post is again going to fall short of what I want to say but I'm lacking in eloquence right now. I'm choked up again having just watched James Camerons Expedition to the Bismark. My grandfather served on the Hood.

Watch it if you can, it sums up everything I'd like to say.

[Guest]

I will indeed try to catch it tryxie.

 

However while I respect the average german who fought in the Wermacht/Luftwaffe/navy to me I do not believe that the Waffen SS or some u boat crews deserve the same honour.

 

There is a way of fighting wars and those who break those rules should be punished. Whatever side they are on.

 

Another uncle was in a Japanese pow camp and came back weighing 5 stone from 14. He had no fingernails and they never grew back properly, and they left terrible other physical and emotional scars on him. He died in the sixties a broken man with mental problemsarising from his torture.

[White Fox]

Tryxie...

Am I right that the Hood was the one that was sunk quickly with loss of life of most on board? That sort of thing is hard to keep straight. War was so big it is hard to remember all of the details.

 

All one needs to do is visit some of the larger cemetries from the two World Wars to learn a great deal.

 

As I recall the Bismark was actually found by an American plane that could not shoot at it as the country (USA) was neutral. So they shadowed the ship til the Brits came along to sink it. I am trying to remember the name of the planes that sunk it. Just tiny biplanes, though very big in comparison to most bi planes. I believe that there are only two of them left flying today, and one is actually in Canada not far from here. I've seen it fly over here several times.

 

W

[Guest]

Yes that's right White Fox. The Hood was hit midships and broke in two, taking all but a handfull of the crew with her, something in the region of 1200 men.

 

The planes you are thinking of are Fairey Swordfish, affectionately known by the pilots as "Stringbags".

 

Tryxie

[White Fox]

Swordfish...

That right! Should have remembered that one. I see one fly over here at least two or three times a year. Big open pit biplane, but in comparison to a ship like that they are so tiny. Unbelievably noisy. No idea how they could ever fly them back in those days.

Usually when it flies over the pilot is wearing the leather jacket and long scarf, etc. just like they used to wear back then. Pretty neet to actually see it.

W

[Guest]

Going off the point a bit but did you know that Baron von Richthofen's cousin Freda was DH lawrence's wife?

 

Relevant as we were talking about bi planes, Richthofen was seldom seen without fur, and he was such a style icon.

 

Many of the prussian aristocracy were against nazism as such. Wolfram was the only member of the family loyal to hitler.

 

Back onto the Hood. Hopefully this will be of interest Tryxie:

 

http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=+site:www.hmshood.org.uk+The+Hood+HMS

 

Maybe you can find a picture there or submit one.

[Guest]

Thanks for that post, but none of the image links work. I visited the site and did a crew search.

The only reason I knew he served on the Hood was a framed certificate that hung on my Gran's kitchen wall, nothing was ever said or explained to me and I never met my GF.

 

Albert Victor Fletcher, Petty Officer Telegrapher, term of service 1932-08-27 to 1933-08-30

 

I'd always assumed he was lost with the ship. You can't imagine how this makes me feel.

[White Fox]

Tryxie...

OK, revising this message. At first I didn't realize that was not even war time!

W

 

Very interesting info on both Hood and Bismark... Including some from your Grandfather's time.

 

http://www.hmshood.com/

[LordTheNightKnight]

I watched this movie the other night, a little fur, but that's not the point. It's a movie about what is probably the most iconographic photo of the 20th century.

 

Just for argument's sake (as I am not putting down those who fought; my grandfather did), what other photos of the 20th were just as iconic?

 

There is the sailor and the woman kissing on V-J day.

 

The steely blue-eyed woman during the Russian occupation of Afganistan.

 

The Vietnam colonel shooting the VC prisoner, which is almost the dark twin of the Iwo Jima photo (the prisoner did have the colonel's family killed, but it did bring home the brutality of the conflict).

 

I wonder if there is a site to view all the Pulitzer Prize winning photos over the years.

 

This is again not to put down that photo, just pointing out that the last century was so varied, it's not possible to put the whole of it in even one photo as great as that.

[Guest]

The famous photo of another of my uncles on top of a KVI tank drinking vodka with a Russian tank commander has been utterly surpresed outside Russia. it still howver hangs in the Kremilin.

 

On his deathbed he made me promise never to fight the Russians. He didn't even need to ask me.

 

I never will.

[Guest]

Maybe this is worth a thread of its own so as not to detract from the horiginal posts. Somewhere everyone can post a link to their entry or offer a suggestion

[Guest]

sorry Tryxie.

 

We are talking about I thought the heritage of our relatives who fought for freedom.

 

Howver yes i accept if you want to talk about the original post then I will buut out. Sorry!

[Guest]

The Bismark was found by a British Coastal Command Catalina, on board was an American co pilot who was on attachment. The Hood was sunk by a shell going through the wooden decks into the magazines, ( not the library ) , the battleship blew up; 1,400 men were killed and 3 survived. My grandfather was in RAF bomber command and was was responsible for a lot of slum clearance in Germany. Britain and her commonwealth lost about 350,000 men in the 2nd world war, Germany lost 11,000,000, and Russia lost 25,000,000.

[Guest]

Leonard B.

[Guest]

sorry Tryxie.

 

We are talking about I thought the heritage of our relatives who fought for freedom.

 

Howver yes i accept if you want to talk about the original post then I will buut out. Sorry!

 

No ToS, no butting out required.

 

This is an example of Tryxie co-ordination at its best. My head says one thing, my fingers say "f**ckit, I aint typing that" and the keyboard doing something of its own. You may have noticed I do it a lot.

 

What I was trying to suggest was that we open an new topic for what we consider to be last centuries iconagraphic images. Somewhere we can post an image link, offer an explaination if desired, some suggestions have already been made by Lord. I just wondered what images moved other folk.

 

Actually we are talking about those who fought and what they gave us. But if you ever watch the movie you also see how shabbily our heros are treated. I think they became the first commodity of our disposable society, hence my comment on "they walk amongst us all the time" and we should remember that.

 

To paraphrase Churchill

Never in the field of human conflict has so much is owed by so many to so few, and we give them so little.

[Guest]

okay these would be some of my personal icons.Not these sepecific images, but what these things symbolise:

 

http://www.historicaircraftcollection.ltd.uk/images/te566_czech.jpg

 

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/buzz_a11.gif

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1030000/images/_1031343_charles.150.jpg

 

http://www.skylighters.org/special/cigcamps/images/ritasmoking2.jpg

 

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/621621/2/istockphoto_621621_m4a3_sherman_tank.jpg

 

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/kepek/tanks/pics/t-34_76_5.jpg

 

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/01/10/clint.jpg

 

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/scott_of_antarctic_wilson_scott_oates_bowers_evans_january_18_1912.jpg

 

http://www.dacre.org/flash/www/gb100060.jpg

 

http://www.nicholson.u-net.com/dessie2.JPG

 

http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/wp-content/lgpp0363.jpg

 

http://www.sfondideldesktop.com/Images-Music/Sex-Pistols/Sex-Pistols-0001/Sex-Pistols-0001.jpg

 

They are not all images as such. But say the image of Prince charles hunting or any image of a spitfire or any movie star smoking or any image of the moonlandings are important to me . They are thins that should never be forgotten from the last century. Clint is there because he epitomises the strruggle of the rugged individual agaisnt the state. A sherman and a spitfire and a t34 because they are iconic of the struggle against the Nazis.

Joan Collins in The Bitch for obvious reasons.

 

Desret Orchid because he was the horse that captured the heart of a nation. But seabiscuit or red rum or aldaniti could be the same for other people. Courage of man and animal togeteher.

 

The Sex pistols because they symbolise again individual freedom of expresion.

Capatin Scott because it is heroic failure; something britain is good at.

 

Englands 1966 world cup winning team ....beating Germany is hugely important to us.

 

But then of course there would be iconic things that are important but negatively so. I won't post....but things like the trenches of WW1; Hitler, Stalin, screaming Stuka , The Blitz, Dresden, Hiroshima, Aushwitz, Kennedy assasination , the twin towers....these are all iconic too.