Tolerance

[wallee]

Touch...

 

You ask can it be proven scientifically hat hunting with hounds is not cruel? So you are unaware of the immense body of profesional veterinary, behavioualist, conservationist and hiistorical evidence that overwhelmingly has proved just that.

No, I asked you to prove scientifically that the fox doesn't think it's cruel.

 

Those on horseback that follow for example rarely if ever witness a kill.

Because they don't want to see the fox ripped apart?

 

The way a pack of hounds kill is that ONE hound delivers a bite to the back of the neck.

 

And then they stop?

 

It is therefore EXACTLY the same METhOD of death as far as the fox is concerned as cervical dislocution, the preferred method of killing by vets for furbearers.

 

Only if a pack of Vets chase the fox to the point of exhaustion.

 

So if hunting is cruel, fur is also cruel.

 

You have in no way presented anything that creates a chain of logic to make that statement.

 

The fact that SOMETIMES the fox is torn apart by the hounds is irrelevant. It is dead. Doesnt matter whether it is eaten by hounds or skinned for a coat. As far ais the fox is concenred, it does not matter.

 

Therefore ethically you cannot object to hunting ...if you do...then you MUST also rationally be against fur.

 

See above.

 

 

Ripped apart alive and skinned alive are complete rubbish. Yes they both sometimes happen but

And I gaurranty the fox is no longer having a good time.

By contradicting yourself you negate what little "evidence" you have supplied that directly relates to the topic at hand.

 

I don't care who or what you are, being ripped apart alive is cruel treatment. If you disagree with that you're pretty cold hearted.

 

You've used a whole lot of words to call me a Nazi,

and made way too many assumptions based pretty much on one thing I said.

 

By asking you to prove the fox doesn't think it's cruel, you somehow assume I'm against hunting and must therefore be against fur as well. I have never once said I'm against hunting and I'm obviously not against fur or I wouldn't be here.

 

Raven...

 

So you're saying the fox isn't scared shitless and running for it's life?

 

It's really just a matter of opinion based solely on what side of the pack of blood thirsty dogs you're on.

I still stand by this.

 

And worker's right. We should be discussing other things more closely related to fur.

 

Lets take this to P.M's so everybody doesn't have to keep reading this novel.

[Guest]

This thread reads like almost peta BS!

 

*White, this is the type of crap that makes me want my membership terminated. Too much insane poliitcal ranting and no one with mod power doing anything. No Law just Chaos.

Edited January 6, 2007 by Guest

[ReFur]

Guys! Please?

[Ravens8]

I don't care who or what you are, being ripped apart alive is cruel treatment. If you disagree with that you're pretty cold hearted.

 

Ah come on Wallee! If you are being ripped apart and eaten alive by a bear or a shark, are you saying the bear or shark are being cruel to you. That's a bit hard on them, they are merely following their nature, and you have lost the battle of the survival of the strongest.

 

Are you saying the US and Brit troops are being cruel to the Iraqis they kill and vice versa, blowing them apart and leaving them maimed to die painfully. Wether you want to believe it or not, despite all our pseudo trappings of self named "civilisation, we are all nothing more than animals, along with every other animal on this earth. Look beyond the surface at your true nature and accept it. It doesn't mean you are a cruel person. All animals get along with each other until they want something, food, territory, care of young etc. and when they want something, the web of life that has evolved with them, is there to provide their want, so they take it, it's offered free for us all to use.

 

Life is very simple, it's just our brains that make it appear complex. The web of creation has evolved through simplicity, not complexity. Just let it all go and enjoy the mere 80 odd years we have here on this earth if we are lucky. And that's all it is - luck, it's what makes life exciting!

[wallee]

Raven.

 

Nobody else really wants to be reading this or even have to see this continue.

 

Take it pm's please.

Edited January 6, 2007 by Guest

[Ravens8]

Sorry I forgot to add

 

Lets take this to P.M's so everybody doesn't have to keep reading this novel.

 

Hold on a minute? Isn't this what the Ye Olde denne pub is for? - discussing topics which may not necessarily be fur related? I thought that's the reason you go to a pub. - Have a pint and have a moan, grump, or discussion about the world, and our passions.

 

What's the point of going home and pm'ing people, we would deny ourselves others points of view.

 

If you dont want to "read the novel", then dont. - read another one!

[White Fox]

B/F... I agree there is a lot of twisting and turning here and much of it useless. However, remember that this is the Pub. That is what the Pub is for and as yet no rules have been broken. With these posts here, it is pretty much as mentioned. Read what you want to read, and disregard the rest.

 

That is why this was removed from the Den to the Pub a couple of days back by the mod I think.

 

W

[Guest]

Indeed thank you whitefox and ravens. I am sorry Eric if this is getting to you but my intentions are to fight the enemy with truth and unity. While some people here believe that opinion is valid when it is not informed then that gives credence to all PETA views. BY THE WAY GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK AND HOPE YOU ARE FEELING BETTER!

 

The medical and scientific community are rallying against PETA. So are the Huntig lobby. We should too. Unite we stand. If yo casy aside whatever preconceived ideas you may have about foxhunting and check the fatcs, you will see the pro hunting argument is undeniably proven. It will be relegalised in the UK as a result as the ban is a farce, and compromises the welfare of the fox in many ways.

 

Here is my answer to wallee.

 

no you havent. You just proved mypoint.

 

You did not consult the veterinary evidence.

 

the fox is NOT ripped apart alive, but dead.

 

That is why it is chosen for the job. As i said it is the huntsmans job to make sure the fox is killed quickly. OFTEn...as is clear from photos on the net if you google ... the huntsman pulls the fox out if it is suspected of being diseased or if it is a partculalarly wily adversay, to show the farmer it is the culprit. It is DEAD. The hounds have killed iit with a clean bite. One. As instant as cervical dislocation.

 

all your other points are also answered within what i wrote. BUT THIS NEXT POINT IS HUGELY IMPORTANT AND YOU MUST UNDERSTAND IT TO REALISE YOUR ArGUMENT IS INVALID.

 

As most animals other than man DO NOT conceptualise or consider consequence unless trained by man or experience to do so, he does NOT worry about being caught, he has NO concept of death until he is dead, as he has no experience of it and NO sense of EMPATHY with other animals who are dead. THAT is scientific fact; not opinion. You are anthropomorphising and that does a grave diservice to animals. We have empathy because our power would be appalling without it. Indeed, against each other it already is as ravens pointed out. BUT ANIMLAS DO NOT HAVE EMPATHY AND DO NOT CONCEPTUALISE ABOUT DEATH THAT MEANS THEY DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT. the fox believes in its own ability to escape and if it is caught then the end is quick. far better than any alternative.

 

I do care about how many animlas and how they are killed and I would have no truck with it if it wre cruel I abhor cruelty to animals and my whole life revolves around understanding them, and protecting their habitats. My main support of both hunting and fur is not fetishism but conservation...as the people who know me here can bear out. Yes I like women in fur...most men do. But it is for conservation that I am most outspoken, and hunting...whether native or british...is about conservation.

 

It is hugely important that this is heard here as an alliance is massively important to present a unified front to the enemy.

[Guest]

There is one other powerful argument that contra's PETA's position re hunting, and also equally applicable used in defense of fur, which people should bear in mind.

 

That is to do with alleged speciesm and the nature of "vermin".

 

Vermin, when used by city dwellers, is a word that describes rats. When used by country folk against the more beautiful fox, they are shocked.

 

Before we can discuss that we need to be clear what the word vermin means.

 

Vermin is defined in three ways:

 

1. noxious, objectionable, or disgusting animals collectively, esp. those of small size that appear commonly and are difficult to control, as flies, lice, bedbugs, cockroaches, mice, and rats.

2. an objectionable or obnoxious person, or such persons collectively.

3. animals that prey upon game, as coyotes or weasels.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Origin: 1300

[wallee]

 

The fact that SOMETIMES the fox is torn apart by the hounds....

Ripped apart alive and skinned alive are complete rubbish. Yes they both sometimes happen....

 

 

 

Being ripped apart alive is cruel. Doesn't matter who or what you are. You're telling me that because the fox doesn't conceptualize, he doesn't know he's having a bad day?

[Ravens8]

Blimey Touch - I would just love to read your views. But I just dont have time - guess I'll just have to miss a lot

 

And Wallee. It works both ways. You cant say we dont know what the fox is thinking, and then tell us that you think it is thinking "I'm having a bad day here!!"

 

Anyway - I'm drinking up, might go for a pee first, then I'm off home. You guys can continue if you want, but I'm off. That's the trouble with 24 hr pubs - curses on Tony Blair!!

[wallee]

And Wallee. It works both ways. You cant say we dont know what the fox is thinking, and then tell us that you think it is thinking "I'm having a bad day here!!"

 

You're absolutely right. Nobody can prove one way or the other.

 

Therefore a blanket statement of "it's not cruel to the fox" cannot be made and that's the only thing I've been saying.

[Guest]

Wallee. Once more. The fox is DEAD when it is ripped apart. The hounds are obedient to the huntsman and whipper in and it is possible to RETRIEVE the fox from the pack BEFORE it is ripped apart. THEY ARE DEAD. DEAD. ONE CLEAN BITE TO THE BACK OF THE NECK. I would post pics but most of them are on anti sites. The fox is shown to be dead before being ripped apart despite their claims. Of course there are the very odd exception swhere the fox is bowled over and the hound misses the bite, but it still rarely takes longer than 3 seconds. Quicker then than a bullet. And the bullet does not allow the fox to escape...unless winged.

98% of chased foxes escape. Now, with the gun, 50% are killed. And the other 50% escape injured to die in pain. Hounds NEVER allow that.

 

 

 

THIS IS NOT A FOX HAVING A BAD DAY> LOOK AT HIS EARS:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39037000/jpg/_39037381_foxb_203_pa.jpg

 

And in any case they still can be chased by law....not even the antis are particularly bothered about that. They are hapy as long as they are then shot. Problem is the 60% of fox that ebd up wounded.

 

Foxes as i said cannot conceptualised death, therefore they do not fear it in the way humans do. It belives in its inincibility and own ego centre, and it knows that that is part of its life, as it is for all animals in the wild. he fears only pain. And that is why the hounds are the best method, because biting the neck severs the nerves and renders the death relatively pain free.

 

Here is the evidence that the fox is now worse off;

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4724028.stm

 

 

Unlike the only practical natural method open to hunts now. I promise you they make a bloody hash of it. However, it is spectacular :

 

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40987000/jpg/_40987410_huntingpa_203.jpg

 

The eagle owl is also being used:

http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-images/EagleOwl2.jpg

 

the fox still gets chased by the hounds, and with the eagle its not so swift when he kills. However unless the government ban falconry aswell there is sod all they can do about it. And since even labour councils have acknowledged that falcons/hawks deter pigeons, and are using them, they are not going to ever ban it.

[wallee]

I give up.

 

If you don't read your own words, how do expect others to?

 

My post 3 or 4 up is quoting you.

 

By your own admission sometimes the fox is not dead and is ripped apart alive. But I guess it enjoys that too.

[Guest]

nature is not perfect. however it is more perfect than a gun or a poision or a snare.

 

You believe I would be so passionate if i hadn't witnessed the truth?

 

Okay try some other former antis;

 

The chief executive and others who have fought tooth and nail for a ban , and are in FULL possession of all the natis arguments, have ture dsides. the current leaders of the orgainsation are intelectual maggots compared to these people. READ what they say....or forever be blind to the truth:

 

http://www.supportfoxhunting.co.uk/docs/whatthedefectorssay.pdf

 

And remember please the fact that 60% of people in the UK are for the overtrurning of the ban. The VAST bulk of expert opinion is als in favour of the lefting of the ban. The Tories are 1/5 on to win the next general election, and the hunting ban WILL definately be repealed.

 

In the meantime, whille you stick to your guns on this in the face of all i have presented, remember that the sam epeople who have fought for this, all two milion of us, are also pro fur.

 

Choose your allies carefully.

 

If it came to a ban on fox hunting or a ban on fox fur, I know which side I would be on on a welfare point of view having seen both. Do NOT test me.

 

One is free.

[Foxy Lady]

This is to each and every one of you. Some food for thought if you will. If each of you (and I mean EVERYONE!) would take this into consideration before writing these novels, it would save us all a great deal of wasted time reading this CRAP. BTW, incase none of you have noticed... YOU AREN'T GETTING ANYWHERE WITH EACHOTHER!

 

"Never argue with an idiot, people on the outside can't decifer the difference."

 

"Opinions are great. Everyone has some, but no one agrees completely on one."

[Guest]

I might have to train the hounds to scent this particular vixen.

 

I think she would provide good sport.

 

Don't worry though it may be me instead of the hounds that rip you apart though foxy

[Foxy Lady]

I don't know what's worse... you or the hounds!!!

[Guest]

I am a terrier if you dare go to ground!

 

And a master of my steed.

 

And not too timid to give the beast a damn good hiding should she be marish!

 

Tallyho!