Question 2. What do you think of paid memberships?

[White Fox]

The second question we have is this. What do you think of everyone who joins here paying a membership fee?

 

Once again, we have no thought to begin doing this in the near future. We would just like to know everyone's thoughts. In fact we have always said that we do not like this idea, so unless many members wanted it we would not do it.

 

White Fox

[Worker 11811]

I would accept some sort of "Premium Membership" package whereby members who wanted to upgrade would get bonus features but I would not accept having to pay to be a member at all.

 

The idea of this website is to attract new members who want to understand their love of fur. I believe there are a lot of people who have feelings about fur and have a hard time coming to grips with it. Being able to come here and talk about that is a big help to them.

 

Requiring paid membership would work against that.

 

Okay for some kind of "Premium" upgrade but NOT okay for general membership AT ALL!

[mailonfurs]

I voted against.

 

Paid memberships require some additions in order to run. Also, it is risky that the den coud lose more than half of the members here.

 

What I would consider as an option is giving some extras to the members. Like access to some other forbidden places on forum to non-paying members.

Or even a larger fee but including the access I was talking about, a special fur gift like gloves, fox collar etc with a FurDen label on it, a printed yearly newsletter etc etc

[mailonfurs]

worker I just saw your post, our opinions collide!

[wallee]

Well....since you asked... I refuse to pay any type of membership fee for anything on the net. If it's on the net and it's worth seeing it can be found for free with a little perseverance.

 

Having said that, I will happily donate money to a site that I feel at home at and/or offers me something I enjoy. That's why I willingly became a sponsor here.

[auzmink]

With 'fur' as the issue, and remembering how 'we' all felt about 'discovering' like minded individuals at the beginning, I think keeping it free is important. Lets not scare people off, lets welcome them in. If they have been members for 1 year, an 'invite' to sponsor might be an option, but no-one forced.

 

Auzmink.

[mailonfurs]

I know its too early for finalizing the results but so far more have voted against.

 

If thats the case, I'd like to see another poll when we finsih with this one, where members will be asked if they'd register to an OPTIONAL paid membership with a few extras and bonuses.

 

Some I can think of are:

 

- Periodical (maybe yearly printed version with news etc)

- Free Fur accessories

- Gift coupons on other online fur stores (that should not be too difficult to

accomplish)

- Access to hidden parts in the site, like a forum category for members

only, photos category for members etc

 

and whatever else you'd like...

Edited February 16, 2008 by Guest

[JGalanos]

WF -- At the risk of being blunt -- Why are you asking these questions? I find them somewhat disturbing (and have voted accordingly!).

 

P.S. About to head to downtown Chicago in f/l coyote. Tis cold out. BRR

[White Fox]

Folks don't get the wrong idea here. We have had a number of people suggesting these ideas. If we get suggestions like this, we like to know how members think.

 

For instance, if 90% voted here that they like the idea of paid memberships instead of sponsors we would be wrong not to think of doing it. (To state the obvious.) These questions just give us ideas on how members think about different areas of the site.

 

In the near future we have to totally redesign the site for instance due to change in the PhP Forum Format. We may have decisions to make around that. If we have ideas how people think on different areas here it helps us to make those decisions.

 

As of now. We do allow banners now in our links area with certain restrictions as you know for members. We also allow information in signitures within certain limits. We have had suggestions from a fair number of members that we change that. These polls will give us ideas as to whether we might do that in the distant future. My personal preference is no advertising above what we now allow. However, I say that as a member rather than site owner.

 

Hope that helps.

 

W

[LordTheNightKnight]

I suggest a premium membership ONLY if running ads wouldn't work.

[Worker 11811]

mailonfurs;

 

We have entertained the idea of a gift or premium with a paid sponsorship several times but when we "do the math" we almost always come up short. The cost of the gift always seems to end up being more than the amount of money we would end up putting in the kitty to pay for the website. Or we would end up having to raise the cost of the sponsorship to cover the expenses which would make it prohibitively expensive to our members.

 

Just about everybody thinks the idea is a good one but nobody has figured out a way to make it work, financially, even before you figure in the costs for labor and postage, etc.

 

If ever there was a way to make this scenario work out and be profitable, I don't think there is a single soul who would be against it. It's just that, up till now, nobody has been able to figure it out.

 

If you've got ideas, the floor is open.

[MrMockle]

All,

 

I have just cast a vote as being for a paid one-off membership fee - only fair as I was one of those who suggested it to the Moderators some time back. Personally I think it may resolve some issues by imposing such costs and lead to a better range and quality of service, although of course it is for the current Moderators to listen to the membership and weigh up their opinions against the costs of running the site and means of funding the services provided or proposed.

 

Regards,

Mr Mockle

[frugalfurguy]

I don't know that I understand the issues well enough to weigh in at the present time.

 

I gather, though haven't seen it spelled out, that our current way of maintaining the site through voluntary member contributions isn't working. That is, revenue doesn't match expenses. Is that an accurate surmising as to why this is an issue?

 

So far I haven't contributed any money here. There certainly are free websites out there that I have sent donations to, however. This brings up some personal doo doo that I'm still working at. For me it was a step closer to acknowledging the way I am to make a transition from lurking for the sake of looking at pictures to actually sharing about my life. I wonder if there's a similar obstacle before I'd be willing to donate money to the Fur Den.

 

At the same time, I don't like the idea of becoming dependent on advertising revenue. That could eventually lead to curbs on what's okay to say and what's not based not solely on being considerate of ourselves and fellow denizens but based on whether advertisers like what we say.

 

I'm not sure I understand the poll question. Is the proposal for a one-time membership fee? If so, would we be expecting newcomers to pay the site's way? Or are we talking about annual dues?

 

In considering whether I'd be willing to pay to belong here, I'd want to know what I'm paying for. Are there plans to expand the site contingent on increased revenue? What sorts of new features might emerge?

 

Thanks, White Fox, for your patience and willingness to give your attention to this forum.

 

frugalfurguy

[White Fox]

First off, I want to emphasize once more that no one here should take this the wrong way. We have had suggestions that we do this. So, I thought it a good idea to ask ideas. But please do not start to assume things. The canvas this year pretty much got us through the next term ok. Yes, we need a little more but I am sure that will come over the next few months. So I do not want anyone to assume that is the reason for this.

 

Also, we may or may not make changes in the future. We are just looking for ideas here. That is all.

 

As to how this would be done, this is only a vague idea. It would have to be considered how it would be done. But for now, don't expect anything in the next few months as it "Ain't gonna happen!" This is simply an idea that we may or may not look at in the future.

 

***This is one thing to consider. i.e. think back to when you first came to the Den. Were you rather timid? Would you have paid to join up that first time? THAT is really the biggest question about this. We would not want to do anything to discourage new memberships. My personal concern is that it just might do exactly that!

 

W

[AKcoyote]

To further clarify what White Fox wrote and answer one of frugalfurguy's questions...

 

The present method of raising revenue IS meeting expenses for now.

[Zaphod_bee]

I for myself can not answer the question in either way.

Though I did not contribute to the den with money (up to now !) I would definitely not scare a new member who might be in the process of "coming out" with a necessary payment. Nevertheless I woul propose a fee AFTER e.g. one year to keep the - now most propable known - username.

 

Zaphod_bee

[ReFur]

I don't know that I understand the issues well enough to weigh in at the present time.

 

I gather, though haven't seen it spelled out, that our current way of maintaining the site through voluntary member contributions isn't working. That is, revenue doesn't match expenses. Is that an accurate surmising as to why this is an issue?

 

frugalfurguy

 

Frugalfurguy and JG,

 

If you read this thread you will see a mixture of responses from mods.

 

As AK stated our current method has worked. And, that is because I just came on line a few weeks ago and point blank asked for support. And, as I expected, a few wonderful souls "stepped up to the plate" and paid so the site can stay on track.

 

The problem White Fox has as the owner is the continued pressure of knowing we are running out of money every year and he hates to ask for money.

 

We have had suggestions to place ads, which many hate. We have had suggestion to charge a nominal fee every year, which some hate.

 

So, for now John is trying which of these choices works best for the membership.

 

My personal opinion is this questions usually get very low response and just "mess" with members. But, that is just my opinion.

 

Bottom-line this place doesn't run for free and somewhere we need to have a reliable, fair way to cover the costs and not stress White Fox out every year.

 

What you say I be appointed the "Fund Raising Moderator," White Fox. That way I can ask for the money instead of you!!

 

Linda

[frugalfurguy]

Thanks for the info, folks!

 

I believe we empower ourselves when we take responsibility. I've been working at being financially responsible. For someone with artistic hankerings, that can be tough. I'm also a member here, and it's important for me to accept some responsibility for contributing there, too. So I'm wondering where my reticence comes from right now. Anyone else here identify with that kind of a hangup? Is it possibly part of a process of self-acceptance?

 

I'm considering it. But even if I felt more confident about donating, this wouldn't be the time as I'm waiting on my former employer's promised performance bonus from my service throughout 2007.

 

Thanks for your patience!

 

frugalfurguy

[JGalanos]

Just a thought ...

 

If I understood correctly, the annual operating expenses of the Den run ~$800 per year. If we assume that all 1600+ members are active (which I think is probably a stretch) then each member's share of the expense would be roughly ~.50. If we assume that only half the members are active, the figure would double to $1.00. Surely everyone could afford to contribute $1.00 or more per year to offset the operating expenses of running the Den.

 

Perhaps we could set aside a specific month for contributions so that it becomes an annual event/expectation. No doubt some folks are concerned about their anonymity, some folks do not have nor want a paypal account, etc. -- So perhaps a PO box could be set up that would allow (at least US) members to anonymously mail in their contributions -- $1 or $2 (not sure about international members with customs and all). Sending money through the mail is not generally advised, but if surrounded by a folded sheet of copier paper I doubt there would be an issue.

 

Again, just a (hopefully not totally stupid!) thought. Other ideas/options are most welcome!

Edited February 26, 2008 by Guest

[White Fox]

JG

 

We do kind of agree with you. However, there is a problem or two in your thoughts so I should point that out first here.

 

First off, we try to canvas every couple of years, so that doubles that figure in a way. Also, changes always come up. For instance have you noticed the forums pages slow to load lately? That is because of the number of messages we have. We may find an easy solution to this temporarily. But in the long run, we are either going to be forced to get rid of massive amounts of messages, or purchase another site to store old messages so that you can see them at any time. This is in addition to a storage site for pictures we mentioned before.

 

Yes, we have 1600 members. However, probably many of those never came back after a month's time. Then we take off other members who have just found that they like other sites better. Then we take off the number of people who would just not donate to a web site as they do not trust it's administration (Yes we realize that and have to be ok with it). Then we take off those people who just honestly do not have the money to be able to do this. For instance, we have had members who use the library, because they live on the street. (Yes, we do have members like that.)

 

So, when you take off all of those people you end up with possibly 200 - 300 people at most probably who are possible sponsors.

 

***However, a favorite line of a couple of our administrators is that they like to see a whole long list of people giving smaller amounts as that means that everyone is sharing the cost here.

----

 

So, Yes, I think all staff here tend to agree with you. However, I think we would be looking at more like $5 to $10 among members who would contribute, each year. But that would indeed be the Utopia.

[auzmink]

We love this site, I've happily paid a sponsorship, I would like to feel others would and will continue to contribute in some way, (technical, moderation and / or financial).

 

I'll happily add more to the pot when WF or Linda asks......after all, its sites like this that give us a forum to show us how normal 'fur appreciation is' and for us to lift ourselves out of a perceived 'hideyhole'.

 

'Long live (IN FUR) the Fur-Den'

 

Auzmink

[ReFur]

auzmink,

 

You have been a wonderful supporter of our site since I have been here, in so many ways!!

 

Just want you to know it is greatly appreciated.

 

Linda

[auzmink]

Linda, compared to yours and other Mods input to this site, my contribution is but small. However, we ALL work to keep this going. May it be so.

 

Auzmink

[Worker 11811]

...we ALL work to keep this going.

 

I wouldn't enjoy working on this website nor would I even hang around here if I didn't like the people who come here. We have had some fights and some hard times but, 95% of the time, I really enjoy working on this site. I do what I do because I like doing them for you guys.

 

So, by extension, it really IS you and all the other members who keep this site going!

[frugalfurguy]

Thanks, Ausmink, for sharing what donating here means to you. I'm still thinking.

 

Sometimes raising money can become a little hotter if there's something at stake. I wonder if an ad hoc committe of us were to get together and see how big a matching pool we'd be willing to offer. Then determine a certain period during which other members can contribute and have it matched out of the pool. If the entire match isn't reached, those who offered it are obliged only to pay the percentage of their pledge as came in overall to match the pool. Maybe we could even engage members to design a furmometer icon to show how much of the matching pool's been secured so far. Make it be the first thing folks see when they log in.

 

I like the idea of keeping it a voluntary thing--so long as enough contributions come in. Yeah, I'd want the people who don't have housing to be able to belong here. We could be the resource that makes the difference between being houseless but not homeless and being homeless period. Requiring payment could cut such members off from a source of nurturing.

 

frugalfurguy