Ungar Furs Targeted by Animal Rights Group ...

[Guest]

I went to Schumacher furs before they closed down in their last location.

 

No protesters however. The Schumacher's were very confrontational themselves and actually antagonized the protesters. Sort of like what worker is saying in that they brought a lot of that on themselves. Horst is not that way at all and since he owns the building there is little they can do to intimidate him. Horst has infinite patience and his reaction is one of viewing them as pathetic, which is my view.

 

Portland does have a history of protests as the northwest does in general. The ELF has had a number of episodes from Northern California to Washington State. Some were recently convicted and jailed for burning down a Forrest Research Building at Univ. of Washington.

 

PeTA is being investigated for funding the ELF. They are a true terrorist organization and if the connection is made it may well put PeTA in the same category. They will be whistling a different tune after that.

 

OFF

[Worker 11811]

furgirl;

 

You have the right to wear whatever you want, anywhere you want and NOBODY has the right to tell you any different! Don't let these idiots deter you!

 

What I talked about above is just common sense. Don't make yourself a target.

 

If ever you have to defend yourself from one of these people, it will be up to YOU to prove that you did everything you could to avoid trouble. Here's what you do:

 

1) Avoid trouble if you can.

Don't go into areas where you know there are people protesting. If you must go there or if you find yourself in a trouble area, unexpectedly, try to be low-key and blend in as much as possible.

 

2) If trouble FINDS YOU, try to escape.

Walk away. Ignore them as much as possible. IF they follow, keep going. Don't stop.

 

3) If they chase you, yell at them to leave you alone.

You must tell them to "Go away!" They have to be "put on notice" that you want them to leave you alone. If they KEEP chasing you, RUN AWAY.

Your best defense is a good pair of running shoes!

 

4) Call for the police if you can. This is important!

Once you go past this step, you have shown that your attacker is not about to be deterred and will continue to threaten you, no matter what you do.

 

5) If they continue to threaten you, the tables are turned!

You now have the right to defend yourself in any way that is legal in the area you live in.

In every single state of the U.S., it is legal for a law abiding citizen to own a weapon for self defense. Check the following website for the laws in your area:

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/

You can also consider buying yourself a can of Mace or pepper spray. (If such a thing is legal in your area.)

 

6) You need to tell your attacker(s) that you are willing to defend yourself.

Tell them, "Get away from me or I'll shoot!" (Or spray.)

 

7) At this point, your attacker(s) have had SIX CHANCES to get away!

DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO PRESERVE LIFE!!

Pull the trigger if you have to!

 

8) There are "shortcuts" to this list.

If there is a "disparity of size or number" you might be able to go right to step 7.

If there is a 6-foot man chasing a 4-foot woman, she can assume that he can easily do her harm.

If there are ten of them and only one of you, again, you can assume they can harm you easily.

 

There is also a "disparity of weapon" that might make a shortcut.

If your attacker has a weapon, you can jump ahead in the list.

 

9) There are also "BACKWARD shortcuts"!

If you are bigger than your attacker, it is easy to assume that you can run away or fight him off.

If your attacker doesn't have a weapon, you can't jump ahead.

 

You have to use "Proportional force". You have to THINK about your situation and you have to JUSTIFY your situation before you can act. You can't just go out and shoot somebody because they LOOK like they might be a bad guy. You have to PROVE IT!

 

On the other hand, there is no place in the US (or most parts of the world) that doesn't uphold your right to defend yourself if somebody attacks you.

 

What I'm trying to say is that you don't have to be a victim.

YOU HAVE POWER! YOU ONLY NEED TO USE IT!

You shouldn't be afraid of anybody just because they have big mouths and like to shout anti-fur slogans at you.

 

You need to do nothing more than change your thinking.

 

My wife carries a gun and she knows how to use it. She's a damn good shot too!

There's no rule that says, guns are for men only. Women have the right to defend themselves too!

 

By the way... I did some research... Oregon is a "Right to Carry" state.

That means that, unless you have a felony/major-misdemeanor on your record or unless you have a history of mental illness, the government can not deny you the right to carry a weapon if you see fit to do so. But, if you want to carry a concealed weapon, you will probably have to go to the courthouse or sheriff's office and get a permit.

 

If you choose to carry a weapon, PLEASE do so legally and learn how to use it PROPERLY!

[fur999]

Sorry Worker, but I have issues with your point 7.

I fully agree and support everyone in their right, even the right to PEACEFUL Protest, but I cannot agree with turning to using a gun as a method of defence.

As I'm sure you are aware, here in the UK all hand guns are completely banned, even with a licence (except Police and Armed Forces). I do not think this is the answer to a confrontation.

Not sure what is, but taking someones life certainly isn't.

No one has the right to impose their views on any one else, just to voice those opinions.

 

Apologies for highjacking this thread. End of, this after all is not a political site, and should remain that way.

 

The right to wear fur is one that everyone has, the same as the right to choose not to wear it.

999 xxx

[Guest]

Unfortunately protesters in the US are sometimes nearly as violent as the criminals with their physically confrontational "protesting". Especially the animal rights individuals. They feel, for some reason, they have the right to this assault on your personage. Indeed, I think some of them get their ideas from the criminal TV shows and feel they can act them out in public.

 

Personally I would not resort to firearms but I would use pepper spray without hesitation on such confrontational individuals. I would first call the police on my cell phone and report a personal physical assault by the protesters ten seconds prior to spraying them generously. The do not have that "right".

 

However, until I personally experience this myself I will not kick the dogs as none of Horst's customers do .. that I have met so far. I usually get there early to have most of the day in Portland and with Horst. The protesters are usually there more like a corner group of teens having just woken up. Not a threatening bunch at all. The customers pass them by as though they are invisible as I do. I have carried and worn furs for all the visits in cooler weather. I don't think I have ever been closer than fifty feet of them.

 

Maybe my next visit I will tote pepper spray just in case

 

OFF

[furgirlxoxo]

Thank you so much for the advice. This is really good advice for any woman who needs to protect herself in an unsafe situation. Sometimes you do not know when that situation might occur. Wow, so the UK does not use guns at all? I think I did hear that. I agree that guns should probably not be used in a situation like this, but if you did feel like you needed to protect yourself....maybe some self defense training would be better? I'm not much of a gun person, but I have given it some thought if someone ever tried to attack me in my home.

 

Sorry, back to the topic we are on. Does anyone know how Horst is doing? I was thinking of stopping by or calling and offering him some support if he needs it. I'm thinking he might be really stressed out due to the protests as I heard he is now closed on Saturdays

[Guest]

Mostly because of summer. Not the most aggressive business men, though his son did say they didn't have Schmacher to entertain them.

 

They will be open on Saturdays during the winter months.

 

I suppose if you had to see them on Saturday they could accommodate you. That is if you were buying a big Sable and it as just the ONLY day you could come in

 

OFF

[furgirlxoxo]

Pepperspray/mace also sounds like a good idea. OFF, It's good to hear that you haven't been bothered by the group of protesters. I just googled "Ungar Furs closed Saturday" and I found this. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/07/377429.shtml

 

It looks like the protesters are now starting to target Ungars during the weekday!

[Worker 11811]

Furgirl was talking about people who followed her to her car and shouted threatening things at her. She had the right to be concerned.

 

This isn't protesting. This is defense.

 

Defense means protecting yourself and your family from harm. It does NOT mean hurting other people just because you don't like them. It is a very important distinction.

 

It doesn't matter to me if you use a pointed stick. You have the right to defend yourself against somebody who would do you harm. Once you have exhausted all other means: running away, calling the police, warning the attacker and deciding whether the attacker has the means to actually hurt you, and you STILL have no alternatives, you have the right to do whatever it takes to stop them.

 

This is not necessarily about guns. Guns only make defense easier.

 

If I was called upon to defend myself or my family and all I had was a rock, you can bet I'd use that rock in whatever way I could to stop the attack.

 

Again, you have the right to wear fur if you want to and there is nobody who can tell you different. 999 times out of 1,000 you will never have a problem wearing fur in virtually any situation. The worst I have ever seen is an occasional nasty comment which was easy to ingnore.

 

I am simply pointing out that there is nothing to be afraid of unless you choose to be afraid to wear fur.

[RonGav]

Closed Saturdays -normally a big day I would guess.. that's horrible. I know this has taken an emotional toll on him.. but otherwise has survived OK.

 

We do need to support him however we can, perhaps by stopping by to offer moral support if you are in the neighborhood, or even sending a coat to him for alterations or storing -- as I did recently -- to help him financially.

[FurLoverinFL]

Saturdays aren't necessarily 'big days'... My furrier is only open on Saturdays from December thru the following March. Generally not much call for furs in Florida to justify it being open on Saturdays during our warmer months.

 

FLinFL

[Guest]

One reason I go in on Saturdays (aside from personal convenience) is having Horst all to myself for extended periods. Not a busy day for him even in the winter. Those who do come in are mostly "regulars" who often join in the conversations. There is his son as well.

 

Visiting with Horst is better than the Barber Shop He is such a wonderful intelligent conversationalist and full of the most interesting information and stories, not just about furs. Just the kind of guy you are fortunate to know.

 

I can't see any of his customers ever being intimidated by any protesters. Besides, he gets a lot of business from out of town. The cushions (and sheared Beaver couch Kevin mentioned) is a customer from Florida!! So if you have any needs or want any custom furs don't hesitate to contact him for an estimate from wherever you may be.

 

OFF

[shelley and kevin]

Protests or not Shelley and I will continue to use Ungar Furs. I also use them as I know that the pelts from our coats come from Canada or the USA or even Finaland. I want to support a family owned business that keeps dollars here and supports people making a living wage.

[RonGav]

Go Kev ! " title="Applause" />

[auzmink]

Well I for one posted a non-threatening comment to that stupid protest post. Sure it will attract attention so if anyone wants to add 10c to it, please do.....

 

Auzmink

[shelley and kevin]

Furgirlxoxo:

 

Let me offer my 2 cents worth. You need to file a complaint with the Portland Police. Horst has been keeping things very low key so the Portland Police don't think there is a problem at Nicholas Ungar. The Portland Police and the Mayor, as you are aware, have stated that the Schumacher's brought everything on their heads, because they spoke out and against the protesters. Horst and his son do not file any complaints, unless things get VERY out of hand.

 

The best way that you can help them, is to file a report that is completely separate from them. This way they aren't accused of "bringing everything upon themselves. This whole thinking process infuriates me. We finally get away from the "good ole' boy" thought process that a woman in provocative clothing was "asking for it" when they are raped... now because a business doesn't want to lie down and take it, when a bunch of freaks are spewing filth and lies, they "brought it all upon themselves".

 

In case Kevin has not told the fur den, we were harrassed one day while entering and exiting Nicholas Ungars. They got video cameras out and started filming us walking back to our cars and yelled filthy words at us. Of course you'll never see those video tapes, because it puts them in a terrible light, and most citizens would not respond kindly to their choice of words and tactics.

 

So, in case you haven't figured it out, I would love to be a part of a Anti-Protest! These people infuriate me.

 

Also, Furgirl, I would be happy to meet you in Portland and walk with you into Nicholas Ungar's. I'm sure Kevin would also go with us. You need to remember that these people are the biggest cowards ever! They are only comfortable harrassing and terrorizing people when they are in large groups. They have not protested leather shops because the average patron of said leather shops would kick their butts if anybody tried to interfere in their ability to purchase the items they want. No, they target little old fur wearing ladies or people who have respectable lives and jobs that they cannot afford to jeopardize by responding in the same manner as they are treated by the protestors.

 

Also, do we have any lawyers amongst the group? The protesters have posted on many different sites that their goal is to close down Nicholas Ungar. To my way of thinking, this is way outside of "free speech" if this is their goal (and I can send several links to their sites).

 

For your entertainment pleasure... here is a youtube clip that one of the protestors video taped.

I've never done links in this forum, so if the link does not work, google Horst Grimm Nicholas Ungar and you will be able to see it.

 

Well thanks for the chance to rant.

 

Shelley

[White Fox]

It would I think be very good for someone to just hang around that area. Watch for everything that they do wrong, and film and tape it. Catching faces, etc. Probably the police would not do anything. But I bet that some people would not frequent the area quite as much if someone kept doing it. Maybe find a camera with a very, very visible long lens and film from across the street. The second they come across and start harassing, then you really would have the goods on them.

 

W

[furgirlxoxo]

Shelley, I'm glad there is someone else that is just as pissed off as I am about these stupid protesters " title="Applause" />

We should hang out whenever your in Portland and go to Ungars. I would feel so much better if someone was with me. Maybe we should ask Horst how he would feel if we had a counter protest? If he doesn't care then I think we should do it in the fall/winter time. Something needs to be done or they might go out of business....or Horst might not be able to deal with those irritating snotty nosed kids harrassing him all the time. I feel so bad for Horst and his son dealing with all the stress of keeping their business alive while some bored kids try to ruin his life. By the way, how did they get the name Nicholas Ungar Furs? Is that their great great grandfather? Haven't they been in buisness for a long time? I saw the youtube video you posted Shelley! I wish Horst would have kicked them in the balls! They have taken lots of footage of me too. I keep surfing the web to see if they have posted it anywhere. Can I take legal action if they do?

[Guest]

Horst went to work for Nicholas Ungar in the 50's (?) when he and a friend ended up in Portland in their wanderings.

 

I think he said his friend went to Philadelphia?

 

My own feelings of the protesters that hang out in front of Ungar is more in the pathetic range of emotions. Not something that motivates me, or I think Horst, to counter protest.

 

That's not to say we shouldn't meet up sometimes there

 

 

OFF

[JGalanos]

In case Kevin has not told the fur den, we were harrassed one day while entering and exiting Nicholas Ungars. They got video cameras out and started filming us walking back to our cars and yelled filthy words at us.

 

Wow. I have never experienced anything like that -- Personally or vicariously. I have walked by 3 or 4 protests in Chicago in the past couple years (I was wearing a fur jacket one time and a leather jacket another) and I did not witness anyone being harrassed (other than the fur and fashion businesses they targeted). Perhaps the fact that the protests were being held on cold days on Michigan Avenue where it's not unusual to see 25% of the ladies sporting fur or fur trimmed garments may have been a factor. With literally dozens of great furs passing you by every hour who do you single out?

[Worker 11811]

They have taken lots of footage of me too. I keep surfing the web to see if they have posted it anywhere. Can I take legal action if they do?

 

The answer to that question is "Maybe yes. Maybe no."

 

One person (or group of people) can legally photograph (or video tape) another if they are in a public place but they can NOT publish those photos or video without your consent unless there is a compelling reason.

 

If you are walking down a public street, you have no expectation of privacy.

Anybody else who is also walking down that street can see you. Anybody can take your photo or make a video of you as long as you are in a place where anybody can see you.

 

They can NOT take pictures of you inside private buildings. (Offices or apartments.)

They MIGHT be able to take pictures of you inside public buildings like shopping malls or retail stores if the establishment doesn't have a "no photography" policy.

 

They USUALLY can not take photos of you through windows of public buildings like stores, etc. but if it is done in a way that anybody could have seen you in MIGHT be allowed. Taking pictures of you through windows of PRIVATE buildings is not allowed unless they have compelling reason.

 

By "compelling reason" I mean something BIG. Like if you looked through a window and saw me committing a murder or something.

 

Now these are only reasons why you can TAKE a photograph. You still can't do anything you want with it. You can not publish it without the person's consent.

 

You can't print it in a newspaper. You can't put it on TV. You can't print it in a magazine and you can't post it on a website. Any of this is illegal if you don't sign a release.

 

Exceptions to this would be things like news coverage. The TV news can show pictures of people on a LIMITED basis if it is part of a news story.

 

If the person's face is not identifiable in the picture you might be able to publish a picture of somebody. This is why you see faces of people blurred out on some TV shows like "Cops."

 

If you took a picture of me committing the above (hypothetical) murder you could take it to the police but you could not publish it on the internet and say, "This guy committed murder!"

 

There are exceptions for celebrities because they are in the BUSINESS of having their likeness published in the media. So you could publish a picture of Oprah Winfrey (or somebody famous) if you saw them walking down the street as long as you don't slander/libel them. But if they are in a place where they can expect privacy like their house or a private place, you probably could not publish their picture unless there was a compelling reason. (Like if you took a picture of OJ Simpson standing over Nicole with a knife in his hand.)

 

So, yeah... Let them take your picture all they want.

 

But if they put your picture on the internet or any place else without your permission you can sue them.

[furgirlxoxo]

Worker, so if I'm on a public sidewalk and they take video of me and put it on youtube like they did Horst can I still sue them? How could we sue someone on youtube....it's not like any info about who they are is on youtube. It could be anyone right....or is there some other way I'm not thinking of?

 

Wow so was Ungars named after someone named Nicholas Ungar and Horst met him and took over the store? I'm fascinated about history....especially fur stores as a lot of them have been family businesses and have been around for many years. Schumacher's store was around for I think 100+ years. I would love to chat with Horst sometime. I bet he has some really great stories.

[Guest]

Horst is a real talker and he loves to tell about the history of things. He's never in a rush to push folks out. Even when relatives visited from Germany when I was there it was all very sociable.

 

More like a private living room than a shop.

 

I think Ungar has been around long as Schmacher's.

 

Horst started to work there and learned the business. When the Ungar's wanted to retire he made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

 

OFF

[Worker 11811]

If somebody puts a video of you up on YouTube without your permission, contact YouTube and report the video. They are obliged to take it down.

 

If they take it down as you request, leave it alone.

 

If there are repeated violations, report them to YouTube and they will probably ban the user but other people can sign up on YouTube and post the video again.

 

If they KEEP doing it, you'll probably need to get a lawyer and take it to court.

 

Keep in mind, your beef is with the person or persons posting the videos and not necessarily with YouTube. YouTube isn't really responsible for other peoples' actions unless they fail to take reasonable measures to police these problems.

 

If you meet with personal harassment because of these videos, take it up with law enforcement immediately!

 

If you meet with threat of physical harm, take all legal steps to self defense like we talked about before but it important to show that you were an "ordinary law-abiding citizen" who was "minding his own business" when you met with an "unprovoked" attack.

 

I don't really want to go into 1,000,000 little details of law because we could spend all year discussing these minutia. I know a lot of these things because it was my major in college but I am not an all-knowing authority. I may know more than the average person but I am not a lawyer or a cop. If this is an ACTUAL problem for you, do not hesitate to take it up with the proper authority, lawyer or police.

 

I will tell you from personal experience... 99.9% of the time you will NEVER have a problem. The worst thing I have ever seen is some yelling and shouting.

 

It is my advice for you to IGNORE these idiots as much as possible, up to the point where you meet with UNPROVOKED harassment or UNPROVOKED threat of harm. At that point, you should get the law on your side or, if necessary, defend yourself.

 

Until then... Be a law-abiding citizen. Be nice to other people.

But, most of all, wear your fur proudly!

[Furbabe]

I just returned from Portland yesterday. I paid a visit to Ungar Furs last week and purchased a golden isle fox and knit hat, letting them know that I supported their business efforts in the face of attack because I love fur. I didn't see any of the animal-cult nazis around the store but if I had I would have been ready for them!

 

The Ungars were very nice and quite friendly. If you happen to go through Portland please pay them a visit of support.

 

BTW, has anyone thought of printing up a bunch of those "Fur is green" tee-shirts worn by models and other personnel at a Toronto fur fashion trade event earlier this year. It would be nice to have something like that since the only tees with fur messages are "anti".

[lovely]

i am very surprised that this thread has not been updated anytime recently. the peta thugs are at it again outside of ungar furs! as a washington resident, and a loyal customer to Mr. Horst himself, i stop by the shop as often as i can!

 

My husband and i stopped by the shop yesterday for some cleaning and we were able to catch up with Horst. We were greeted outside by about 15 peta freaks holding signs and trying to talk to us. Horst tells me that another protest has been underway since early December. We were told that they started to protest every friday. Then they started every Monday, Wednesday ( as well as Friday ). But now it is EVERY day that the shop is open. MON to FRI.

 

The shop is not doing so well. I am afraid that Ungar Furs might not be around too much longer. We will see if this protest holds up!