Forums - should we keep them?

[White Fox]

We are getting huge traffic here with people viewing the Gallery, and our Wiki. The wiki traffic indeed is becoming huge, sometimes even close to our Gallery. (Remember it includes Links.)

 

We also are getting a lot of people simply viewing the forums. You might not think it, but the numbers of people viewing the forums are actually very high. However, forums are for replying, and not as many people are doing that here and on other major fur sites. Forums usage by new people has dropped, and we need that new participation.

 

We would like your ideas here on how to proceed. Should we integrate some forums together? Should we modify the purpose of some to make them more interesting. But above all, should we even go so far as to delete the forums altogether in order to expand our Wiki and Galleries or even add other new services here? If so, what should we open in place of the forums.

 

It is just that forums are not for reading. They are for two way communication. And, with so many people simply using our wiki and Gallery instead of the forums, we are just wondering on what direction to take our little site from here. Brandy puts huge amounts of work here. Maillon takes a lot of time to come to give us correct information on a lot of questions asked. Some of our members take a lot of time to post. But if other members simply want to look at photos or links, then we cannot ask these people to keep on working.

 

Here is your chance folks. What direction should we take here? Present site postings and our usage graphs indicate that we should be expanding wiki for instance as folks are much more interested in them than our forums.

 

Please let us know what you think. I would like to make this a poll, but that is too "Easy". I think that to answer this question that people need to post and let us know their throughts. As this is a very important issue on the direction that we should take from here. It is extremely important that everyone who is interested in our site take part in this particular discussion, as it will provide us with the information on how to proceed from here.

 

Thanks all

White Fox

[icepilot]

Hmmmmm

 

It seems like I have been "an offender" in this area recently I am sorry to say. When I joined 2 or 3 years ago I found the forums EXTREMELY helpful, in many ways from products to dealing with my "fetish" and talking to people like me who helped me see I am not alone. However, I have not posted in some time...what happedend?

 

I have been somewhat distracted with other interests, activities, duties, etc. However I have still been reading occasionally and I do love the forums. My gut reaction is to keep the forums! Perhaps some consolidation might be in order if space is at a premium. I was surprized that the FFA forum did not take off bigger that it has. Perhaps we could make this public? Perhaps just have a fur den forum and a furrier forum?

 

I do think discussion is valuable and needed, even if it is becomming a smaller part of this wonderful site. It is what makes us different and valuable in my opinion. I hope we can keep the forums.

[Zaphod_bee]

For me the forums are what the den makes "The den" ! Although not much used in the past I even like the FFA since I can be sure, that no lurker or search engine can have a look on this. To become a meber, you have to involve yourself in the communication in our forum.

If we now have reached a limitation in traffic, maybe a idea would to exclude non-members above a special mark (=amount of traffic) - this might also lead them to attend the forum as users as well as maybe pushing them to even talk to us !!

 

Zaphod_bee

[White Fox]

Just a quick comment.

 

At the moment we are ok for space, and will be for awhile, though we are getting bigger and bigger. Time will come.

 

This is based more on the fact that people seem to be enjoying other areas more, and we were just wondering if we could make other changes here to make better use of the site and make it more enjoyable for everyone.

 

Thanks for the comments. We always appreciate any thoughts about our site and we try to take all of them seriously in site design. I hope that we hear many more comments here about this subject.

 

W

[FrBrGr]

Since I have "retired" from the Den as an active administrator or even a moderator, I do not have any direct input into the management of The Fur Den. I can only watch and feel the pain and frustration that I know people like White Fox are feeling. I watch as Brandy works tirelessly to bring the Den a fresh new approach without more than a comment or two from the same people week after week after week. I look at the hours and hours of time other members, such as roninphy have spent to bring something special to the site without even as much as a thank you from the majority of the membership. I also see the statistics on how many people use the Den's Gallery. Participation there is impressive, but it is all one-sided. In other words, many, many members visit The Fur Den and take, take, take - but only a handful return the favor, so to speak, by actively participating in the forums here in the Den. And that even includes at least one moderator who visits the website only when the urge strikes. Make no mistake about it - The forums are the lifeblood of this website. If they fail, the website fails. It's as simple as that! Don't worry about the threat that activist groups pose for The Fur Den. Thanks to AKcoyote and Worker 11811, there is a marvelous security system in place. No, no, no - The real threat this site faces is within the membership. Members who do nothing to support it.

 

All I have to say is that White Fox is a saint for putting up with this. He, AKcoyote, Worker 11811, and other mods are very, very concerned and have spent endless hours discussing what needs to be done in order to encourage participation on the forums. You are fortunate that you have them making the decisions instead of me. At this point, there is no question what I would do if I were still the owner of this website. (1) I would refund what money the Den still has in its treasury back to the donors (in proportionate amounts, according to the amount of a donation) and (2) I would shut down the site.

 

Speaking as the Founder of The Fur Den, who nurtured it for many years, I know that it is probably pointless to assume that more than just a handful of people will ever contribute their time, effort, energy and yes, even money to a website such as The Fur Den. It is those same people over and over and over again who make the effort, while the rest of the membership is content to sit back and do nothing other than enjoy the fruits of other people's labor, which I know and they know, is a labor of love. I always accepted that fact. "That's the way it goes," I always told myself. That's the reality of the situation. It never really mattered before. It does now. It is no longer a small forum where a few dedicated people come to share their love of, and experiences with, fur. Now, it is a very large community that depends on everyone's support for it to exist. AFAIAC, the bottom line would be, "Do you like The Fur Den? Do you want it to stay online? Then get off your lazy butt and do something to make it successful other than look at the pictures and wank yourself to sleep at night!" This place needs more than lip service. It needs everyone's help to keep it alive. The management and administration should not have to beg you for your help!

 

White Fox, I am sorry if I have stepped out of line here, and I am sorry if I have offended some of your non-contributing members. No, I take that back. I'm not sorry. Let them leave and go somewhere else if they're so damned offended. You are the one who should be offended! You'll never miss them. They weren't doing anything anyway. You've done a masterful job in taking over the Den and doing it in the spirit in which it was founded. I thank you for that. It just makes me mad when I see frustrations - justifiable frustrations - building over something that would not be a problem if other people loved The Fur Den as much as you, most of your staff and a handful of very dedicated members and fur lovers.

[auzmink]

FrBrGr,

 

Good post, but we have to remember some of us have only limited Fur-site viewing time. I for one wish I had 36 hours in a day so I could get 'it' all done and still get a decent sleep.

 

I for one put myself up therefore as a probable guilty party of watching and contributing sometimes.

 

However, new members still visit the site, I believe the membership grows, and what is important is this site being 'out there' for new 'fur interested' people to see. Sure the forums sometimes re-visit old stuff, especially if a new member arrives and asks questions previously dealt with, but we are there to promote the positives of fur, to show its normal to like it, to encourage other people to join and to re-buff the negative sentiment in a minority of the community.

 

I think the forums are great, even if the posts are not turning over quickly. I for one don't feel the need to add my 10cents to every post, (it would probably be quite boring) but the ability to 'catch-up' on recent fur news, and to liase with like-minded individuals is priceless. Hence, I'm happy to add small numbers of posts, and I'm happy to be a sponsor. If and when asked, I will add more fiscally.

 

Auzmink.

[White Fox]

Sure the forums sometimes re-visit old stuff, especially if a new member arrives and asks questions previously dealt with, but we are there to promote the positives of fur, to show its normal to like it, to encourage other people to join and to re-buff the negative sentiment in a minority of the community.

 

Indeed. I never begrudge going over a post about an old topic with a new member at all. Indeed so often when that happens, we get a whole new angle on the topic that we have not heard before.

 

W

[lovefur2]

I too am an offender, but I just do not have much to say. I certainly appreciate all the work and would miss this place very much if it were to go away!

[White Fox]

Love Fur, one thing that I can tell you is that we are indeed interested in what you have to say! I used to think exactly as you. I was hesitant to post and possibly even a tiny bit scared for awhile. Then, MY problem was that they suddenly could not shut me up!

 

But, all kidding aside. I guarantee that if you post about some of the things you think might not interest others, I am pretty sure that you will find that often times they really do become topics of interest.

 

Would indeed love to hear from you and others more often. If you see a link somewhere that contains something you think might be of interest to members here, just post it in a thread here. If you think of a topic, let us know. If you see a video somewhere post it here and tell us if you like it and why.

 

I'll bet that will be surprised how much more enjoyable you will find the place to be.

 

W

[foxkid]

I for one wish I had 36 hours in a day so I could get 'it' all done and still get a decent sleep.

 

Ditto! Sleep is even more important when fur blankets are involved!

 

I also concur with icepilot for pretty much the same reasons.

[Worker 11811]

I have a question.

 

Do you ever just feel "furred out?"

 

I love fur. Always will. That's not the question.

What I mean is that when you always talk about fur and the people around you always talk about fur, you often feel like you have talked about everything there is to talk about. You just don't have anything more to say that hasn't been said.

 

I've got a lot of other things to worry about, too. I often use the Fur Den as a way to forget problems for a little while at the end of each day. But sometimes I just get that "furred out" feeling.

 

What do you think?

[AKcoyote]

Do you ever just feel "furred out?"

A very interesting thought and possibly one of several factors that led to the original post in this topic.

 

Hmmm.......

[alphonso]

Hello,

 

 

Yes I would like to echo icepilot too.

 

Actually I'm a bit of a loner anyway so I guess i'm just not that comfortable speaking my mind. Sure it is tempting to go for total immersion and live the dream so to speak, but I prefer to maintain a balanced life and try not to spend too much time on the internet. Say didn't the mods ban some of the more outspoken posters previously? Perhaps there is a lesson there.

 

Also i find it increasingly difficult to keep track of the posts. There are now so many different threads and specialsist areas tucked away that you don't know where to start AND also these days it does seem like everything has been said already.

 

Having said that I don't want to be all critical - this is a fab place - and I expect I will always be looking in.

 

Thanks to all you hard core posters.

 

F/L red fox

Budget blue fox jacket

Super blue fox jacket which has now become a gilet due to wear and tear .

[White Fox]

Alphonso...

 

I've heard stories about all of the people banned here too. I am not sure where that got started. In the whole life time of the Den. I would have to check on the time - 12 years maybe? There are only 3 people that I know of with long term bans. Many sites ban that many members in two months. As mentioned, I'm not sure where that got started. I just wanted to clear that up a little bit. (That of course excludes spammers who come here to advertise Viagara, etc.)

 

Re many places to look. I have a couple of ideas there. However, that may take a little time.

 

W

[joebolton]

Keep 'em!

[FurLoverinFL]

I have to confess that I agree with worker. I'm on this site at least 2 times per day. I check out all the forums that I 'moderate', and post where I think it is appropriate.

 

That said, I've been in the internet 'fur community' for the last 13 years. There are times I think I've heard everything 4 times and seen everything twice... (well, except for the stuff that our own Brandy posts. ). Maybe I'm just totally burned out... Maybe I've just become a

 

FLinFL

[JGalanos]

I agree that the forums should continue -- For me, they are the "heart" of the Den.

 

I understand WF's (and Da Burger's) frustration with the lack of forum activity the past few months. I always log onto the Den with the hope that someone will have made an interesting post ... But lately that has been the exception versus the rule.

 

I think (hope!) that posting levels ebb and flow and we'll see increased activity in the future. I've been a bit under the weather and learning a new job and, I must admit, a tad frustrated with minimal responses to some of my previous posts (on occasion I've felt like I was having conversations with myself!) ... But I think you'll be seeing more from me in the near future. I've worn my furs more this season than any other (my furs have graced 24 US cities season-to-date) and I've had some great experiences that I've been hesitant to share due to the "wasteland" status of the forums.

 

Sending out an SOF ("Save Our Forums!")

 

Reminder: There is still plenty of winter left (it was 15 degrees here last night, but I didn't really notice as I was comfortably enveloped in ankle length coyote) ...

 

[White Fox]

24 US cities season-to-date) and I've had some great experiences that I've been hesitant to share due to the "wasteland" status of the forums.

 

Would indeed love to hear of those experiences!

 

White

[Worker 11811]

That said, I've been in the internet 'fur community' for the last 13 years. There are times I think I've heard everything 4 times and seen everything twice... (well, except for the stuff that our own Brandy posts. ). Maybe I'm just totally burned out... Maybe I've just become a

 

FLinFL

 

I've been thinking about this. Expanding on the "furred out" thought:

 

I think this website is unique because it about more than just fur, sex and fashion.

God knows, I love fur and I love sex with fur and I love seeing pictures and videos of people having sex in fur. But, frankly, life is about more than sex.

 

The Fur Den is one of the few, if not the only, fur web site where people come together to talk about more than just sex.

 

However, we all seem to assume that because we have a common interest in fur and sex that we all like the same things as everybody else. Once people discover that, despite our common love of fur, we all have different interests too it becomes difficult to communicate with one another outside of talking about fur.

 

Some people like baseball or football. Others couldn't give a rat's ass about sports.

Some people like computers and electronics. Others are Luddites.

 

I think people often feel a sense of disappointment when they realize that, just because we are all interested in fur, we all don't have the same interests and want to talk about the same things.

[samurman]

Although I feel a sense of provocation -a desperate call for people for increased participation- in WhiteFox' suggestion, I will nevertheless take it seriously and reply: NO, please NO! Do NOT pull the plug off the Den!

 

I have been following the online fur communities for many years, initially as a lurker, but only recently as a contributor. I have also been involved with many online communities apart from fur and in my experience, these communities are strange places, as if they have a life and mind of their own. These places are sometimes bustling with activity, while some other times, they are almost dead. But this is ALWAYS valid: the ratio of active participants to the audience will always be very small. And it all takes a dozen or so "regular" contributors to keep a place lively. The audience may be in hundreds, but if you increase it to thousands, it does not mean that the number of contributors will shoot up above 100.

 

I don't know when this drought of activity will come to an end. Hopefully soon, and I do think it will come to an end. But it may never will. We will have to wait and see it for ourselves. It is next to impossible to change the flow of things in this respect.

[White Fox]

life is about more than sex

 

You mean that there are really some people who believe that?!!! . Sorry Worker, but just could not resist that comment.

 

You are though exactly right on that. I've often noticed how a certain group of people get together with meetings on a certain topic. Might be Religion, History, Work, Sports, etc. All people in that group are interested in that one topic they get together to meet about and they all get along great. Until suddenly for some reason, they end up talking about something else. And suddenly everything falls apart. Those in charge just assume that since everyone gets along so well talking about the main topic that such will always be the case. But, suddenly they find out "It ain't gonna work that way!" Very, very quickly, people begin to drift away, losing interest.

 

I do think that our pub is a good attempt to address that. That is part of what makes our site rather unique. Many sites have similar off topic areas. Not many work. BUT - ours does. I am glad it does too as that is where we can really learn about each other. Our interests, etc.

 

Anyhow, interesting thought re the forums.

 

***Added later. Samurman and I posted at the same time.

It is next to impossible to change the flow of things in this respect.

 

Samurman, your whole message makes a lot of sense, but particularly this part. The sad part is, that if they would only take part they would enjoy it so much more. Too bad because most everyone "Out there" is exactly the same as we are. Yet they just can't seem to understand that! They think we are some far out group of weirdos that they don't want to associate with somehow, when we are indeed just exactly like them. Just ordinary people.

W

[AKcoyote]

It is true that White Fox is trying to get better forum participation and is wondering, with the forums being quieter lately, if this website is worth the effort. However there are other factors that need to be considered.

 

As samurman noted, the biggest audience for many "speciality" websites are the lurkers. We need to remember that most people using the internet to explore their love of fur are, at least initially, very reluctant to "expose" themselves as fur lovers - even anonymously. While it is not visible in the forums, this site serves as a valuable resource for those initially exploring their passion for fur and helps them to realize their love of fur is NOT so unusual or abnormal. While probably 9 out of 10 of those people will never post here or on other fur sites, they are a silent majority who should not be forgotten or ignored.

[Mr Barguzin]

As one of 'The Sages', I think I can explain my feelings about The Den quite simply.

 

What was now is not. (anyone with easily upset emotional balance, or thin skin, look away now.)

 

Nov/Dec 2006 and all heck breaks loose and I kill my old AMD pooter's motherboard typing a furious reply that (fortunately) never got sent, or else I'd probably be persona non grata now.

 

What the argument was about is neither here nor there, but the consequences that transpired over the next three months severely (in my view) diluted the exuberance of this place. There are many folks from that time that contributed in more than one way to my desire to get online and see what they were doing or had done. Some have gone to Cookie's site, and others have just vanished into the ether..... and although it might be thought that given my furry interests I'd be more in tune with Cookie's site than this, back then it was THIS place to which my browser always opened. (And that had absolutely nowt to do with my 'title') This place was a living breathing organism of many and varied views and opinions. It was bustling, even during the 'off' months (read Northern Summer)

 

Nowadays I occasionally pop in and see what is happening.... ogle Brandy's latest offering.... read a few posts.... but it is not the same as it was back in its youth.

 

I hate to say it but I think I was partially responsible for its decline. I was not alone, but do acknowledge that I was no angel either, bringing a bit of Aussie Larrikanism to the place and allowing folks a greater freedom than others (not necessarily of this site) wanted or expected. One thing I did realise, even back in Melody's heyday, was that a fur site is a community of folks drawn not just from a town, city, state, country or continent, but from all corners of the globe and also with the 'luggage" which their society lumbers them, be it religious, legal or political. Even within towns there will be divisions so why should an online community be any different. In fact, it isn't.

 

It is the Written word which can be read and interpreted in the reader's mind, which may or may not coincide with the tone that the writer intended. It is the poster's secret desire with which others may not be equally enamoured. It is the member's wallet that determines that one type of fur is more desirable than another, or maybe the fact that somewhere in the poster's past, contact has been made with said 'unappreciated' fur. There are things that I look for in movies and pics that others would find obscene.

 

What it all boils down to I suppose is the following: Do we (The Fur Den) want to be Windows? or do we want to be one of the versions of Linux?

 

[FrBrGr]

As one of 'The Sages', I think I can explain my feelings about The Den quite simply.

 

Once a "sage," Mr B, always a "sage" . . .

 

Although Mr B and I have been at opposite ends of the spectrum on some issues (particularly when it comes to economics, politics and nationalism) the one thing that has forever bonded us (how duz that'n grab ya, Piotr? ) is our love for fur. There have even been times when I, at least, have found myself not only agreeing with Mr B, but actually endorsing his thoughts and/or opines - ! Here again, I agree with you, Piotr. What was then, is definitely not now. In some respects, IMHO, it's for the better, but in others, it has been for the worse. The absence (or reduced participation) of regular, strong contributors that graced us with their presence prior to 2006 immediately comes to mind (e.g., Earendil, Mr Mockle, Lynxette and yes, even you, Piotr) when I say "for the worse." Yet, from the standpoint of appearance and content, the Den has never been better. What other site offers a wiki? An updated links section? A free photo gallery with over 18,000 high quality photos, rarely duplicated and even cataloged for members' viewing convenience? Even an opportunity for donors to have their very own section of the website? I'm telling you, from this point of view, no one on the internet can compare to The Fur Den!

 

This place was a living breathing organism of many and varied views and opinions. It was bustling, even during the 'off' months (read Northern Summer) . . . but it is not the same as it was back in its youth.

 

Granted, it's not the same place, because some very key "players" are no longer here. A couple are nowhere to be found at any fur site. So if it's not the same place, then what can we, as members, do (short of cloning or reincarnating some people) to make the Den more like it was back in the "good ol' days?" What can the site's owner, White Fox, do? What can the techmeisters (AKcoyote and Worker 11811) do that they haven't already done? What can the mods do? What can I, as the site's founder, do? Piotr, you say that it all boils down to whether we (The Fur Den) want to be Windows, or do we want to be one of the versions of Linux? I have absolutely no idea what that means, so I'll have to rely upon AKcoyote or Worker to answer that one!

 

Mr B, maybe there's another answer. Please tell us if you know. Maybe one of our newest members has the answer. Let's hear from you! Sometimes, us "lifers" can't see the forest because of that tree that is dab smack in front of our face! How 'bout some of you lurkers that have seen us then and are seeing us now. Now's your chance to say something! How do we, as a very unusual community, get this place bustling again? Let's hear some good, honest, candid discussion!

[AKcoyote]

Piotr, you say that it all boils down to whether we (The Fur Den) want to be Windows, or do we want to be one of the versions of Linux? I have absolutely no idea what that means, so I'll have to rely upon AKcoyote or Worker to answer that one!

I believe Piotr may be referring to quality, efficiency, and uniqueness. Do we want to be like other fur sites, or should we continue to try to have a unique site that offers much more than just a couple of discussion forums.

 

Personally, I am proud of what we have developed here (probably because I did much of the technical work). I am not aware of another fur site that offers the variety of resources we have here and welcomes all fur lovers from those whose interest is fashion oriented, to those for whom fur is a fetish.

 

Are there changes to the site that should be considered? Definitely. What are those changes? I haven't a clue.