BBC Real Story:the Mccartneys versus the fur trade

[ReFur]

Angoramsterdam,

 

I think you are saying that being pro-fur does not mean that you believe animals need to be treated with cruelty. I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.

 

This is an interesting article that addresses Animal Welfare vs Animal Rights.

 

http://www.furcommission.com/debate/index.html

 

Here is another. They actually have a lot more there. Worth you time to look around there.

 

http://www.furcommission.com/debate/ownwords.htm

 

Linda

[Guest]

nevermind

Edited June 25, 2006 by Guest

[snowleopard]

recorded it the other night as i was watching the champions league football which was in fact where all the fur action was. Of course i am refering to the plucky squirrel who invaded the highbury pitch and held up the game (that was the only fur debate going on at work the next day)

 

Anyway back to the main point.

 

The programme was not balanced but did indeed include some positive fur sentiments. I thought that the comments from the likes of Richard D North and Hilary Alexander of the Daily Telegraph were good to see. I was particularly pleased with her comments about remembering we dont live in a facist society and freedom of choice. I also liked the piece from the british fur farmer who had to leave the country and set up in europe. He showed the ethical side of farming. And lets face it it is farming. Look after the animals while they are there but then its off to market, no different from pigs, cows etc

 

The main focus of the show was indeed against the cruel practices used particulalry with regards to dogs and cat fur. Skinning dogs alive and the whole concept of dog and cat fur is not for me and i have no problem with that argument. There seem to be some dodgy processes going on in some countries like china and that reflects badly on those who do it right.

 

The way the pair of them came across was very interesting. Macca himself does talk about the cruelty of fur without justifying his argument but he seemed more concerned with the dog/cat fur issue in china. Towards the end of the show he was giving me the impression that he understood freedom of choice

 

His wife however clearly did not. I am gonna give them one chance to change she said, then let them have it, or words to that affect, when talking about fur wearing celebs. Mills-Mcartney was so over zealous i think it may actually do her campaign more harm than good. She also seemed quite obsessed with the promotion of Herself. The pictures of her getting her hair done to recieve rewards and the casual reference to other charity work such as landmines were obvious for all to see. So much so that one review of the show in a british newspaper the next day spent 3 quarters of its column attacking her with the fitting tribute "what does she expect us to do, give her a tiara and call her lady Di"

 

I also believe that the point auzmink raised about the posh ladys of new york is quite correct, their attitudes were not necesary and that didnt reflect well, niether did the stupid woman whose clients were mainly from the hip hop world.

 

An overall summary of the show then, well nothing new that we didnt already know. There are some dodgy practices in the industry and yes these should be stopped. Heather Mills is very annoying also nothing new there and aptly demonstrated the facist ideals of these campaigners. (I respect your oppinnion but dont shove it down my throat when i politely ask you to stop). And finally fur is returning to british stores hooray and wasnt it lovely to see quite a number of ladies wearing it on the streets of London. Long may that one continue

[allfurme]

I presume the people rough treating the dogs were Chinese. If so i would like to comment that South East Asians countries have little respect for animals. I have watched some appauling treatment of animals by Koreans and the Japanese (fish, birds, dogs). Still not to worry, in their infinite wisdom, the government pressurised by the likes of Peta banned fur farming in this country. And where do all the farms spring up; YES CHINA. So many do-gooders really don't think of the consequences of their actions. Instead of being raised in a controlled enviroment, they are raised by the heartless Chinese and as a result, apart from the animals' welfare the fur is of a much poorer quality. Happy animal - good fur, unhappy animal - bad fur.

[Guest]

I taped it & I watched it objectively. Fairly evenly scored if your a neutral.

 

My only comments,

 

Sorry Paul BUT she's no Linda if that's what you're hoping, J'sus 60min program & not one smile or moment of affection between them, I actually felt sorry for the guy come the end of the program, I've always detested one-legged-chip-on-her-shoulder-need-a-purpose-in-life Heather Mills Mc Carthy but feck how morose a creature is she,completely devoid of any emotion whatsoever!!!! Hopefully the Great British public will have picked up on that & will jus let in go.

 

For me the whole show was more a political vehicle to yet again bash China & attack there growing economy - very clever really as it's the 4th biggest growing economy in the world & directly threatens the rich lifestyles of some of the Western economies. They even "Succeeded" in getting the EU commission to look into the "Cruel" trade that the Chinese proprogate regarding Cat & Dog fur!!! Yeah Right - It's all about money you soft TWAT!!!!

 

I especially like the way people have already bought into the propoganda against China, which has even been prevalent on this site of late, bordering on racist at times in my view being part ethnic myself, which I thought had been barred? or is that jus for certain cultures I wonder?

[allfurme]

Furelli, I don't want to be Chinese bashing, but when you compare how the South East Asians in general (I'm sure lots of them are kind to animals) treat animals compared with the British it is barbaric to us.

I watched on television a Korean in a market, tear the feathers out of a live bird (which was in a cage crammed with birds), toss it into boiling cooking oil and no one batted an eyelid. I can't ever see that happening at my local market; they would lynch whoever did that.

It seems a same if we cannot state a point of view because it may be seen as being rascist, feminist or whatever-ist. I certainly would not make comments of an -ist nature; well not intentionally.

[Guest]

Furelli, I don't want to be Chinese bashing, but when you compare how the South East Asians in general (I'm sure lots of them are kind to animals) treat animals compared with the British it is barbaric to us.

I watched on television a Korean in a market, tear the feathers out of a live bird (which was in a cage crammed with birds), toss it into boiling cooking oil and no one batted an eyelid. I can't ever see that happening at my local market; they would lynch whoever did that.

It seems a same if we cannot state a point of view because it may be seen as being rascist, feminist or whatever-ist. I certainly would not make comments of an -ist nature; well not intentionally.

 

Ahhh! Ruffled a few feathers I see!!!

 

Nah Allfurme you've only bashed the Chinese the once so no problem, there's others on here whose business is suffering because now the Chinese have a free market so it's trendy to bash them - stifle thier trade & protect themselves in reality & to be fair it grates with me a little

I'm not going into politics but I think you get the picture.

 

As for the Chinese & other SE Asia countries we're seen as pretty barbaric in the West as we can't control social disorder & are seen as a bit of a soft touch with regards to criminal activity & to be fair to the Chinese their civilization has been around & thriving for a good 2 thousand years or so & seen off Genghis Khan whearas some so called empires in the West have only been in existence for a couple of hundred years?

 

Again though it's all about different cultures & excepting that others are different, personally I have no problem whatsover with what they do in the Far East - That's there buisness & excepted customs & rule of law & we should except that & let them be. The fact that they now are challenging our markets..........Ahhhhhhh!

[ReFur]

 

I especially like the way people have already bought into the propaganda against China, which has even been prevalent on this site of late, bordering on racist at times in my view being part ethnic myself, which I thought had been barred? or is that just for certain cultures I wonder?

 

 

Furelli,

 

You bring up a good point.

 

For those of you that are not aware our updated rule A(i) is:

 

Please do not post:

 

Any derogatory/demeaning comments toward a person or group of persons regarding race, religion, political views, nationality, sexual orientation, or gender.

 

That means all Nationalities.

 

I will send some PM's. If you have any more comments like this PM me. It may take a little while for the new rule to settle in.

 

Linda

[MrMockle]

All,

 

The issue with the video scenes from China showing the treatment of dogs and cats showed serious problems with animal handling. But there are some side points to remember (without going too far off topic):

 

1. The argument should be about how the animals are treated prior to their final use, ie food, clothing or other purposes. The fur trade themselves want to do the right thing and be seen to do the right thing when it comes to the farming of animals and this was stated by those interviewed on the pro-fur side of the programme.

 

2. The videos scenes are almost certainly an extreme example and are far from likely to be the norm in China or any other part of the world. As is always the case with such propoganda on any side of any argument, you take the worst case scenario and blow it out of all proportion to proposed that it the the standard practice.

 

3. How do we know that the dogs and cats featured were just kept for their fur? We know that animals are bred for different purposes and uses but some countries may still eat dog or cat meat; perhaps these animal were kept primarily for their food and the skins were the secondary concern.

 

4. The Western world has not been above such treatment of animals ourselves; we regularly see news reports of extreme abuse towards animal and pets and a few of you may remember Carla Lane's protests about the abuse of farm livestock in Britain and France (I think they were trying to stop the transport of live animals across Europe following the treatment of some sheep). And some shellfish are cooked while alive for the pleasure of many western diners (not that that's stopped me from eating them).

 

5. Remember: the likes of Paul McCartney only carry weight and influence at the moment to political figures whom the majority of their electorate distrust or despise. In twenty to thirty years times our politicians will be those who have grown up listening to Madonna, Whitney Houston, Kylie Minogue, J Lo and the like and have had teenage dreams of Cindy Crawford and Naomi Campbell. Who do you think their influences will be?

 

I agree with the view that you can be pro-fur but also for the humane treatment of the animals farmed for fur or food.

 

Regards,

Mr Mockle

[Guest]

I did not in the end see the programme as I was at the horse sales at Cheltenham.

 

however, I have asked a variety of people, including one anti, what their impressions were.

The anti said:

"It has persuaded me that the argumentis groundless. I may even buy a fur"

 

However I must say she is a quite contrary young lady.

 

Several people I know have said that McCarney mills was ARROGANT and IGNORANT and actually came across very bad for her argument.

 

I was extremely annoyed with one person on this thread....Amsterdam newbie....who suggested that I said cruelty to cats and dogs could be justified by mentioning the Inuit. I DEMAND an apology as that has taken my words out of context. To the extent where it is suable. I am sorry to greet a newbie in this way but that is lible.

 

If you check any of my threads you will see I am the ONLY person on this site and melody who has consistently objected to the Chinese cat and dog fur trade.

My links with the Inuit and native peoples are sound and it hideous that someone could think I have said this to defend a trade I abhorr. As I am probably the only person here who is ANIMIST in my religion I object to this slur gravely.

My position is only that you certainly cant negate the fur industry on the grounds of cruelty to dogs and cats by the chinese any more than you can

the meat industry....which is the prime motive of dog and cat rearing in China and has been for some years.

 

Well over 50% of native people of the North across the whole of the planet

are involved in the fur trade economically. The Chinese trade threatens their income by undermining the integrity of fur and competing with it in the marketplace. But most of all northern peoples are nearly all animist and would object as you suggest, to the treatment of the animal.

Chinese poachers of the Tiger for example, are often shot on sight by Yakut sable farmers and fox hunters.

 

SECONDLY by criticising the activities of a nation one is not being racist Linda. The entry to the world marketplace of China has been encouraged by international global companies and they are NOT ethically ready for it.

The piracy of cds etc and the incredible disrespect of intellectual property

and copyright theft means they MUST be criticised. Bird flu and the dog and cat fur trade are warnings of what can happen if they are not reined in when it comes to applying such unbridled greed to the marketplace where animals are concerned. Foot and Mouth is likely to have come from the same source.

That is not to say that there are chinese comapnies who do produce very good products and do employ good animal husbandry. One mink farm in China visited by a friend was in fact very good.

 

As I predicted I have already had two comments from utter ignorami who have asked about our furs being dog and cat as a result of this programme. So Amsterdam, the exact opposite of what you are saying is true. That Native produced furs (and for that matter other ethically produced fur famed furs)are being CONDEMNED by people alarmed by the dog and cat fur trade.

 

So to clarify.

1. I object to the way animals are treated in china

2. I fully support the legitimate fur trade

3. I understand native fur and wouldnt use it to protect cat and dog fur trade; quite the opposite. However there are times when native people will kill their horses and dogs for meat and fur though this is COMPLETELY different from what the chinese are doing.

4. I object to any attempt to link the dog and cat fur trade with the legitimate fur industry as Heather Mills mccartney s doing purely to tap into the ignorance of the masses and create fear, attempting to negate the fur trade.

 

PS I have been to hundreds of fur outlets in the czech republic and never seen chinese dog or cat fur. The only place I have seen it at all, and its nearly every day, is in the UK on scruffy parka goods as trim.

[Guest]

Excuse me, but I have to hijack this thread for a minute. It's not totally off topic, it does involve the Beeb Beeb Ceeb.

 

Having worked late last night, I thought I'd go chat up the security guard at my residence. Anyway we got to drinking tea and watching the BBC Learning Zone thing. It has self promotional adverts preaching to the converted. The first one passed me by, when it was repeated I notice a young lady with a nice coat with a huge fur collar on it. So, if any of you UK folk are up at 2am, just check it out, tell me if I was seeing it right or just imagining it.

 

Tryxie

[ReFur]

Tryxie,

 

I love your Avatar.

 

Did you design it?

 

Linda

[Guest]

Hi Tryxie

lucky old security guard....hope you were wearing fur yourself!

Love the new avatar....your own work?

 

What was the learning zone trailer for?

[Guest]

Touch;

 

I fully support your possition of Animism and the Chinese trade.

 

My view of the Chinese is also not racist. In the Pacific NW Orientals of all nationalities are well represented as well as may "right off the boat". Their stories are too consistent to not be beilieved.

 

I also was a strong supporter of our second generation Chinese governor and wife who had a very even hand with Chinese trade and relations. Far from pro China and stronger than andy other state. The Chinese Nationals demonstrate often here and are some of China's most vocal opponents.

 

I am also personally involved in trade with China and would have it no other way.

 

Yes there is a lot of dissinformation about China but a lot of truths as well that can't be dismissed out of hand. That's not being racist.

 

OFF

[ReFur]

Touch,

 

On gloves and trim items, the source of the fur does not have to be disclosed, from what I understand.

 

But, I personally would rather the fur come from a source that can be renewed than one that cannot. Such as animals that do not breed in captivity and are endangered.

 

The www.furcommission.com website is a very strong advocate of humanly treating animals.

 

One thing I wonder if we should consider what it was like in many of our countries when they were in development?

 

Other countries have to go through those stages as well.

 

Linda

[Guest]

Linda;

 

I'm sure there is a large aspect of that at work in China. It is, in a way, still remaking itself from WWII.

 

There are, after all, over a billion of them and they all want the suburban middle class life style. I probably exagerate but I don't think by much.

 

Just contemplate this:

 

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060220.html

 

 

OFF

[Guest]

Thankyou OFF

 

Linda....this treatment of cats and dogs, as their flagrant disregard of copyright, needs to be addressed.

Its also not helpful to suggest that third world nations are less kind to animals than us. Its many times the opposite...thye have learned to factory farm for instance and it is we who encourage it...or rather our supermarkets who want cheap poultry.

 

All animals should be treated respectfully...that doesnt mean we shouldnt kill them....just that lack of respect leads to bird flu, foot and mouth etc. in their practices to animal husbandry.

I am certainly not racist to the Chinese, but their embracing of western consumerism unbridled is bad.

 

Cat and dog fur is also poor quality....you cant mistreat something and expect a good product; meat or fur. And they HAVE to learn that we will not accept it. Problem is many people are ignorant about fur and dog fur is often so coarse and scruffy many assume its fake.

 

Its certainly not all Chinese companies, and not all chinese market place people; but to pretend its not there just encourages it.

[allfurme]

I agree with TouchofSable in regard buying things as cheaply as possible.

 

I was discussing eggs with a work colleague as she had bought some organic eggs. My way of thinking is; organic eggs 40 pence each, free range eggs 30 pence each, barn eggs 20 pence each, caged eggs 10 pence each - obviously i am going to buy the cheapest; after all an egg is an egg! I said to her that when organic eggs are the same price i will buy them. I don't buy caged chicken eggs because i like to think they suffer; it is purely a question of economics. And so it goes with most things.

 

As regards Third World countries; when people stop buying ivory they will stop killing a lot of the elephants.

[Guest]

Thanks allfurme , but just a point on ivory: Its the ending of the ivory trade thats put elephants in trouble. Personally I, and some within the WWF, would like to see the ban lifted

1. To prevent poaching

2. Because they have just realised that you can harvest ivory without killing the animal

3. Because people are resorting to intensive and plantation agriculture encouraged by the west, which is threatening habitats.

 

The difference between a 10p intensive farmed egg and a 40p free range egg is like the difference between russian sable and dog fur.

 

You have to pay for animal husbandry and welfare, and when you do you get a much better product.

[Guest]

I find it amusing this talk of Chinese chickens and eggs.

 

The Markets here have a hard time selling chickens from Alabama let alone China!!

 

Grown-in-Washington has been so successful the Californians can't sell chickens or eggs here.

 

I just assumed the Europeans wouldn't hear of "foriegn" food products or so they lead us to believe in our Travellogs on TV.

 

OFF

[White Fox]

Folks

Two things here.

#1. There are such things as cultural differences. Each country needs respect the culture of another. Yes, we can suggest changes. But this is probably not the best place to do that.

 

#2. This is a fur forum and not an egg forum. It must either get back on topic, end, move, or be locked sorry to say.

W

[Guest]

Point taken. however we are discussing ethical treatment of animals.

Part of our enemy's success is to take that as an issue.

We must be preapred to unite with people who ARE ethical to animals as allies, such as traditional animal farmers, foxhunting , native peoples etc. and are yet accused of not being so.

Likewise we should criticise where animlas are badly treated...as these people are our weakness; that why the programme focussed on it.

So eggs are a subject of interest...ESPECIALLY AS IT EASTER!!!!! Well almost. Waht I was saying is treat a chicken bad you get a bad egg; treat a furbearer bad and you get bad fur.

 

And as the programme apparently criticised the Chinese we are saying that that is also a subject on this particular thread.

[Guest]

Love to chase them little bunnies. You know the ones in the swim suites.

 

How do you catch a bunny? With a mink coat.

 

OFF

[Guest]

nevermind

Edited June 25, 2006 by Guest

[Guest]

Dogs and cats are not suitable for fur if they are badly treated.

I may feel differently (or at least more understanding) if they were not skinned alive, kept in stressful conditions etc. I would feel the same about mink if they were kept like that.

I think if we support it it weakens our position. Thats my view and it will remain so unless you can give me a good argument why that is not so.

 

I love horse racing and think its good for horses. However there are problems occassionally with unscrupulous trainers and again that weakens the 99.9% that is horse friendly. Everybody in racing just about wants such abuse rooted out. If we do it, then PETA's position is untenable.

 

The same is true of foxhunting.

 

So I think that self regulation is important.

 

 

If I was a poultry farmer I would want battery farms banned.

if I were a mink/fox or sable farmer I would want dog fur banned; especially when it is often masquerading as fox(badly).

 

In fact it was the fur industry who first raised the objections about dog and cat fur.

 

Personally, as I think that dogs and cats are hunting allies its a bad move to use their fur or eat them UNLESS its for survival, or done with respect. So for example a loved husky could make a nice adornment and prevent waste if it has died, or had to be killed through injury or necessity.

 

But I don't want to force everyone to think the same.....thats just a personal position. But treatment of animals is crucial to quality of fur. A Crufts poodle may produce a lovely coat! But these Chinese ones are all minging.