BBC Real Story:the Mccartneys versus the fur trade

[Mr Barguzin]

___________________________________________________________

[MJ]

I would say that the beef I eat has a right to be treated well during its life before I eat it. Similarly I hope that the mink and foxes in my wife's coats had a decent quality of life and were killed quickly without cruelty.

 

How anyone can support the practice of skinning dogs alive, or badly treating caged animals, I dont know. Condemantion of this sort of behaviour does not equal support for PETA types - It is posible to care about animal welfare and love fur.

 

As fur lovers we should be keen to promote the humane rearing, and slaughter of these animals, just as any sensible person would want farm livestock to be treated well.

 

The fur councils and orgaisations should be busy waging a PR war showing good examples of animal husbandry, and should distance themselves as much as possible from scenes such as those from China.

 

The McCartneys have done a very good job of muddying the waters with their cat/dog fur campaign.

[ReFur]

MJ,

 

The www.furcommission.com has done just that. They have some excellent articles and references. They actually work with fur ranch owners on training based on their research on how best and most humanly to handle the different breeds.

 

Great site to check out.

 

Linda

[MJ]

Thats fine for us Linda, but the trouble is that the general public needs to see it.

 

They are unlikely to go looking for that info, but are very likely to hear negative comments in the media.

 

Unless the fur commision(s) involve the media (and realistically that means TV) to publicise their good practices the messages of the antis will dominate and influence pubic opinion.

 

The argument made that there is no ethical difference between killing an animal for its meat of for its fur is a good one. Most of the western world still happily eats meat. The more that we can show that mink, foxes etc (not cats or dogs !) are reared to the same high standards that they expect their free range chickens to be, then the weaker the anti cause becomes.

 

The fur industry needs to be above reproach for its animal husbundry if its to win the hearts and minds of the public. Lets hope that they are and dont let us down.

[Guest]

Well said MJ

 

I would actually go one step further.

 

That Fur bearing animals are BETTER treated by FAR than most meat bearing ones.....or they live a good life in the wild. BOTH practices protect habitats for many animals.

 

So we should be ABSOLUTELY opposed to anything which possibly ruins the good name that the fur trade has gained through very hard work. If we support the dog and cat fur trade then we can kiss goodbye to the wonderful recovery fur has made as a result of good welfare and husbandry and ecological benefits.

[Guest]

nevermind

Edited June 25, 2006 by Guest

[Guest]

i tried to refrain from the dog talk, but moso's last thought on dogs and not caring if they were all treated badly is in very poor taste. i love animals and have had many dogs. no one animal should be singled out, even if mentally, for bad treatment due to what must have been a traumatic experience for you personally. every living thing deserves respect in the grand scheme of things, please.

[Guest]

Who really knows if the live skinning is'nt the product of a PeTA PR person?

 

With their pet gasings would it be a big surprise if they hadn't staged the whole thing to make their ideas match a created "reality"?

 

I'm not suggesting that this has never happened but for a fur farmer to do that even in the most primitive of circumstances runs against all rational thinking. WHY would a skinner do it? It would be dangerous if nothing else. Offing a muskrat in a cage is dangerous enough. To think of grabbing it alive and skinning it is certainly something only a truly demented and crazy individual would do. Or someone paid to stage it.

 

OFF

[Guest]

There is no doubt in my mind that this may well have been staged. However there is also no doubt that there is outrageous animal abuse in China and it is something that the Chinese must address. BOTH bird flu and foot and mouth are the result of bad animal husbandry.

 

However in certain cultures dogs and cats have been traditionally used for meat and fur...so I am not getting at that as such.

Rather, that there is some profound disrespect among urban chinese markets for animal wefare. Ask anyone who has been. Not all...but a fair amount of market people there demonstrate disrespect.

 

If we can take the animal rights argument out of their hands and DEMONSTRATE that those who look after animals and the land are best trusted to do so for the future then we MUST put welfare at the centre.

Thankfully most of us already do that. Sadly, that is not the current case in urban China...or for that matter, urban Africa.

 

And I would also argue, there is little respect for animals in the urban west either for all their whingeing. People who are anti fur and hunting don't appear to worry about fast food and what quality of live the battery chickens etc had.

 

And, as someone else said, there is often also a profound disrespect for human rights.

 

I am watching my cat as he looks out of the window making cacking noises at the birds. He wants to play with them, hunt them. He isnt allowed and cats arent much good at catching birds anyway. But they keep rats and mice away. His fur is beautiful. Maybe if he died I would like a garment from him to remind me of him. Thats how people like the Yakut think about their horses and dogs. They eat them too, taking on their spirit so they are with them always. Its a communion.

 

So Moso maybe your dog fur came from people such as this. One would like to think so.

It doesnt seem correct to me to farm cats and dogs and horses for fur and meat because they are allies in the hunt. they have given us their companionship and service in return for care. We shouldnt ever forget that.

 

With rival predators, the fox and the mink, the situation is dofferent, though they desrrve respect too. As do our cattle and sheep and chickens and caribou.

 

When we pay for a good steak or a good fur coat we are paying for husbandry, animal wefare or the skill of the hunter and his land mangement.

 

Rounding up stray cats and dogs and treating them badly and seeing a fast buck is profoundly at odds with that philosophy that most animal custodians share.

 

market economics generally dictate that until we come to a society that doesnt know the difference between a good steak and a crap burger, or a sleek mink coat and a mangey fur from an animal that hasnt had such care.

 

China is manufacturing for this market; and their ethics are often non existent. they are supplying for people who dont care where their goods come from, whether they are pirated or poor quality or not, who just want cheap and disposable goods. Its a false economy and is at odds with the great contribution that China has made to civilisation.

[allfurme]

i watched a 'skinning alive' video featuring a fox. The person who did it first hit the fox on the head with a club. So if the fox was alive when its pelt was removed i would describe it as comatose; it was alive in the fact that its heart was beating and very little else; or at least that is how it appeared. I agree, what is the point of skinning a fox while it is still alive; it is like milking a cow while it is walking; a total waste of effort. Unless of course the person who skinned the fox was slipped some money so some one could video it?

[MJ]

Even bashing an animal on the head prior to skinning it doesnt cut it with todays consumers, who by and large expect a sanitised painless death.

 

If the fur lobby is to win the PR war they need to make sure that this is not only what happens, but what the public see. Videos of animals moving when skinned (whether or not they are brain dead at the time) does not look good to the public at large. Some of these videos may be staged, but it does not stop their negative impact.

 

The cost of a decent life and death for the animals in the fur trade adds peanuts to the cost of a fur coat, and is almost certainly something which most western consumers would be happy to pay an extra $/

[allfurme]

MJ, I am not condoning the persons actions; personally i still think it is appauling. It was the thought of an animal being skinned alive that sent shivers down my spine; i was expecting the fox to be struggling or at least pinned down while someone removed its pelt. When i saw that the fox was as good as dead when it was skinned made me feel that the publicity around the skinning of the fox ie peoples thoughts of it being skinned alive would have a greater impact that watching the actual footage.

[Guest]

Many fur farms now use the same method of euthanasia as the vet. There is a problem with this though....namely that the meat is rendered useless...and to the majority of people the fact that the meat is not used appears to upset them (strangely).

Its always their reply when you say that they approve of leather yet not mink/fox.

 

However native run farms and hunters dispatch the animal very swiftly. Again there is a practical reason for this....any delay risks injury so in the wild away from medicine this could present a problem. Then their religion also forbids them to cause suffering to what scarcity has taught them to respect. Then the meat is usually used. A Cree farmer was once very embarrased on TV by a stupid reporter to admit that his family ate mink and fox.

 

When these natural factors are forgotten, it is possible for the keeper of the animal or the untrained poacher to forget these...they are alienated from nature. So there is no reason for them to think in a natural way. So cruelty and animla rights are actually two sides of the same coin. They are both the result of people who have no link with nature.

 

On a recent hunt, I observed the following:

1. An injured fawn being stitched up by a vet while out hunting himself.

2. A cornered vixen with cubs rescued by the huntsman

3. A buzzard with one wing taken home as a pet.

4. A great deal of clearing of litter and alerting the authorities of illegal dumping by townsfolk

5. Repairing of damaged gates and hedgerows, and removing of broken barbed wire.

6.Checking of owl and heron nests to see how the young were doing

7.Eradication of ragwort

 

This was just on one foxhunt so one can see that the activity is hugely important in terms of natural mangement. Hunting cultures do the same the world over. Most animal farmers do the same.

 

Many city folk have peculiar beliefs about animals;

1.They don't understand the nature of predator prey relationship and mans role in keeping it correct based on sometimes thousands of years of acheiving such balance.

2. They object to cruelty yet practice the vilest form of it known: poisoning. Not only does their poison kill slugs and rats, but also everything up the food chain, including their own dogs and cats (they scratch their heads and think someone has done it to them on purpose). And then they wonder why there are no birds left in the towns and blame cats (absurdly)

3.They consume animals intensively farmed to suit their pockets so they can eat meat three times a day, yet care nothing about their welfare. They do not see the meat they buy in supermarkets as an animla because it doesnt look like one. But go up to them in a fur which still looks like an animal and they can become hysterical.

4. This lack of real respect for animals mean they tolerate excessive cruelty as long as they don't have to see it. And in China they don't mind seeing it as quick money has become god and therefore resources spent on any animal care is a waste, and any animal is fair game. In Africa the alienated urban people will resort to eating Bushmeat (not eaten by indigenous people) as they feel it somehow connects them with nature.

5. They become disturbed by animal treatment because they are paranoid about possible cruelty because they could not kill their own food. Add into this the way rural life is depicted by films like Deliverance the Blair Witch Project Texas Chain Saw nassacre(anyone who can be cruel enough to butcher an animla can do it to a poerson)etc etc and the anthropomorphic effect of Disney etc and they totally fall of the edge of reason.Veganism and PETA and the McCartmeys are a result of this.

6. Their wasteful consumer lifestyle is actually destroying wildlife habitats every day to provide palm oil, rape oil and sugar which makes their children obese and global companies rich. Then their children comsume pop culture and mass fashion made from oil while hanging around on street corners throwing fireworks at cats, keeping reptiles in council houses yet saying people who wear fur need beating up.

7.The manifest cruelty of urban life has made people actually oblivious to animal suffering....in China and here. I saw an eccentric Welsh old farmer approach a "homeless"youth and express concern about the young womans life, and offer her a job on his farm. I listened intently, and watched the reaction of others:

She said she was allergic to animals and didnt like the way farmers treat them .Onlookers shouted "he's only trying to pick you up love". A good samaritan abused. He then came into the bookies with me and was upset. "I cant believe people can be so awful as to leave a young girl to become a drug addict and homeless" he kept saying.

I also watched a country friend treat a man having an epileptic fit while people walked past and assumed he was a nutcase. I watch people beat each other up, steal from one another etc etc for a buck. Yet its rural life that is attacked by the film industry. Yeah right. People in the country don't even treat animals the way urban people treat each other.

 

 

Its time we had the reins back. Time to trust traditional animal custodians and stop applying absurd ideas born of from alienation from the natural world.

 

I am sorry if any of this upsets any city dwellers ( I am one myself, but have observed the wonderful care that in reality most animal farmers etc give to the animals) but I have yet to meet a countryman from any culture who doesnt say the same things.

[Guest]

The other side of what Touch talks about .. the Urban Cowboy PeTAphiles.

 

A- The large consumption of unnecessary natural resources such as oil, for which there are reasonable and far less harmful alternatives which would produce jobs and money. The development of these alternatives are actually impeeded by our collective governments and in some most peculiar ways .. by PeTA and other so called Environmentalists.

 

B- Recycling. We don't even begin to approach 10% when we should and could be functioning at 50% or better right now and making money doing it!! Recycling can and should be a lifestyle. It doesn't really inconvenience your life that much at all and in many cases can actually improve your life. One simple way is to eat real unprocessed foods. Food packaging and the processing has a major impact on the environment and our lives in the form of additional polutants.

 

C- Live simpler and less impacting lives. Things we own that are better quality and last longer, replacing them less often. In the long run its more economical. eBay is very helpful in this respect. My choice to recycle furs and leather jackets is as much for the conservation of things as any other reason. I end up with a quality product and employs people in cottage industries. There are many other ideas, options and choices we can and should be making on a very personal level. We can and have to save the Earth one person and act at a time and we don't have to suffer to accomplish this.

 

The irony is that some of the chiefe offenders as I say are the PeTA and other Environmentalists. I'm not casting them all in the same lot since I know many very responsible individuals in these groups personally that are working very hard and effectively toward these goals [no PeTA folks thought].

 

Then there are our collective Governments that mouth consrevation and wrack death and destruction instead. The opposition rebels and terrorists are no better. The World Trade Center was one of the most ecologically harmful catastrophies since the Valdes oil spill. The culprits still haven't paid and are being protected by .. guess who??

 

Animals of the world would prosper and thrive if we did these things and we must. Just think of the alternatives.

 

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap051224.html

 

It's all we have.

 

OFF

[Guest]

Actually OFF when you look at the planet like that, it gives me the renewed hope that man hasnt scratched its surface yet. Thankfully. Hopefully it will stay that way.

 

One thing for sure is the Chinese can make an awful lot of scratches if they wish.

 

And you are right about PETA being in on the swindle too. Its animal dependant economies who keep the earth blue and green and PETAphiles are from the people who try to turn it grey.

 

Keep up the recycling buddy.

 

Who are protecting the culprits?

[MrMockle]

All,

 

I received my copy of Richard North's book "Fur and Freedom: In Defence of the Fur Trade" from Amazon today. It's a smallish short paperback (100 pages) and won't take long to read but does contain some good discussion points about the rights of the fur trade and the holes in the common anti-fur arguments. No pictures for the image hunters - even the cover is only a three colour period sketch - but a good text overall.

 

Regards,

Mr Mockle

[Guest]

Erm... Hope you didn't pay much. It's downloadable off the web as a .pdf for nothing. Thats where I got mine.

 

Wish I'd known you were looking, I would have said earlier.

 

Tryxie

[MrMockle]

Tryxie,

 

Oh no - cover price was

[Guest]

And here is the link

 

http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?ID=17&type=publication