The prospect of fur

[auzmink]

Foxb,

 

Whoa.....stop a second, did you say Customs had destroyed the pelts? Firstly some pelts are guarded by CITES and if you try and bring a coat / pelt in you need to have the correct paperwork. Canadian Lynx is a good example, and I got burned with this. However, they let me keep the coat with a warning.

 

But to go and destroy pelts, they would surely have to have had contact with whoever prior to this. You can bring ranched pelts into the UK usually with no problems, except some customs duties if the cost is over a certain level.

 

The story is a little odd to my thinking. I have had no issues with blue fox pelts from the USA and Europe here into Auz. Don't be put off, research and source correctly and you should have no issues. The UK used to be a big fur importer.

 

Auzmink.

[summersmorning]

Nice deer pelt. Foxb. I have a small coyote pelt, I pin it to my skirt for Halloween!

[Guest]

The deer skin is gorgeous! The first thing I thought of is a vest, providing you can get a second skin to complete the garment. I was thinking the dark stripe could be the middle of the back. But upon re-reading your post, I think you have the best assessment in a purse or something to that effect.

 

With regard to destroying pelts. This is ludicrous! I try not to bad-mouth groups, but because of PeTA, scientists who use dogs in research MUST euthenize them after experiments. I KNOW of scientitsts who have used dogs, and become fond of them, so they take them home after the research is complete. Now this is a federal crime in the U.S.! Go figure! Destroying pelts at the border ranks right up there with "WTF"? The animals have already been euthanized, in my opipion it seems to be a true waste to destroy any pelt. Why not just simply "turn it away". In scientific research, we must A) justify the use of animals, B) justify the sample size and C) make sure that there is no discomfort to experimental animals. I have no problem with any of that. I have sought out other researchers to use various other parts that I do not use (I'm a muscle guy). I have sent tissues (liver, adipose) to a variety of labs. The point is, let us NOT waste the life of an animal. Let us use as much as possible.

 

One of my favorite ideas is from when I was at another university. At the "other" university (SU), there was a building devoted to animal research. Part of the population in the animal reseach building was a population of chinchillas. When I commented that the only time I heard of using chinchillas for anything was for coats, I was informed that chinchillas have an auditory system the is very much like humans. Thus chinchillas are used in auditory research. I didn't know this! So I first made a request: "May I hold one?" I told the animal care coordinator that I always wanted to feel chinchilla. He responded with "These are not fur-grade chinchillas." So I made a suggestion. Why not use fur-grade chinchillas for the auditory research then sell the pelts after the animals are euthanized. We started to imagine the headlines in the newspaper "Univesity raising animals for fur coats!" Of course there would be a public outcry. But the reality is, it would actually SAVE animals! Not many, but it would save some. They could be used for more than ONE purpose! In my feeble mind, it seems like a practical use of resources. I relayed this story to a colleague where I currently work (who had a pet chinchilla) and he simply said, it made sense but that "perception is reality". The public would never stand for a university "raising animals for coats" but what they don't realize is that the university would actually be saving animals.

 

I swear, people need to take a basic physics class and/or chemistry class so they can understand how things work.

 

Sorry to go on and on. But the destruction of pelts from animals that are already euthanized is the "epitome of I don't know what" (my mother used to say this). We should honor our resources.

 

My $0.02.

 

JA

 

PS Thank you for the compiment on my jacket!

Edited January 4, 2013 by Guest

[Foxb]

Just going by what this person told me, she was trying to import red fox from the US into the UK. =/ And the packages were destroyed - she told me that she and the seller both had a letter come through about it. Dodgy, no?

 

The UK is still importing a lot of fur, from what I gather. A lot of British designers do use it. I think that designers are more inclined to comment on fur use than they were a few years ago, when that documentary "Kill It, Skin It, Wear It" was produced and few designers seemed inclined to comment. Incidentally, this documentary is ridiculous, in my opinion - it is an investigaton by Merrilees Parker. Maybe a lot of you have seen it, but if you haven't, I shall post a short synopsis: she visits a mink farm, which to me looks like the mink are in very good conditions and are killed very humanely and quietly (I watched this part expecting to be horrified: I was not). Then she gets back home and is shown a video by some animal rights group. I think it was the video that PeTA has flung around - the still-alive raccoon dog, and the foxes with dirty coats being kicked about. She was convinced by this video that fur farming is bad, when I'm pretty sure that those are the exact snuff films found to have been staged (the raccoon dog) and recorded out of context (the foxes were from an inhumane scent producing facility and when the farmer attempted to sell the poor pelts, he failed). That is what I have heard about these videos, anyway - correct me if I'm wrong. Those foxes certainly didn't look like they would have made nice furs that would actually sell. The animal rights guy even came up with the old chestnut that skinning alive improves fur quality - or something like that. He also said that the mink farmers were just showing her what they wanted her to see (sure, they had all that equipment for humanely killing mink JUST there for PR visits - the rest of the time, I'm sure they enjoyed stomping on them instead... give me a break). But he was doing exactly the same thing! Showing her what he wanted her to see.

 

In the end, Parker threw her fur garments away (wasteful). She didn't like the fact that a garment could be made from animals from different countries. She based pretty much everything on the video that the animal rights man had shown her, because she had definitely said that she thought the mink farm she actually visited was fine, and that the trapping of the beaver she also witnessed was fine. The entire argument against fur was based on the PeTA video. What a ridiculous conclusion!

 

furlessinCA: that would be a sensible way to run the chinchilla research, but as soon as the general public get a whiff of something like that, no matter how out of context, they would be up in arms.

 

I'll let you all know what I do with the deer skin

[White Fox]

In regards to that video. I believe that may be the one that, if you look closely, the guys are wearing running shoes. Do you think guys doing that job on a fur farm would be wearing running shoes? I am not even sure if it was a video taken "Out of context". I think it was just plainly staged by PETA folks. PETA actually killed animals like that in a way that probably NO fur farm ever would in order to prove their own point. A PETA freak actually told me one time that it was OK for THEM to kill any number of animals they wished as they were on the side of animals but it was not ok for anyone else to kill even one animal. And yes, they actually believe that! It is ok for THEM to kill animals and to lie and to do anything like that. But it is not ok for others to do that.

[Guest]

A post script: One of the reasons I thought using fur-grade chinchillas for auditory research made sense besides using the animals for more than one purpose would be to defray the cost of doing the research. Doing animal resaerch is VERY EXPENSIVE. I bought some special obese rats that are used as a model of human type 2 diabetes. They were about $80.00 a piece. Now I think they are over $120.00 a piece at the age I would purchase. Mulitply that by 40 for any decent study and you can see how quickly costs go up. By-the-by if you think $120 per rat is expensive, just goodle "transgenic mouse". The last time I priced a TG mouse they were $1000.00 per mouse, and that was a few years back.

 

The notion that "a pelt is better when an animal is skinned alive" is simply stupid. Sorry for my lack of diplomacy, but that is the only way I can describe that idea. I've had to "de-glove" rats. I cannot even IMAGINE trying to do that to an animal that is alive. THAT WOULD BE INHUMANE! Plus try doing that with a mink...I think one would be lucky to survive that attempt. Minks are vicious!

 

WF: you are right, the PeTA people are hypocrits when it comes to "animal use". Further that they stage "animal care" is ridiculous. They are simply tugging at the heart strings of the public. Don't get me going on "animal safe" cosmetics! I'll just say that's a JOKE!

 

Lastly, I don't know how fur animals are euthanized, but it would make sense from a PR as well as logistically to OD them with a barbiturate or ketamine. They simply go to sleep. Any needle puncture would not even be detected in a harvested pelt. One needs a DEA license, and a narcotics safe, but both are do-able.

 

Again, My $0.02.

 

JA

[Guest]

If my previous post is too graphic, I can certainly delete it. I don't want to put anyone off. This is an interesting topic. I suppose being in the "science world", I forget that much of what I do/have done is not familiar to most folks. And yes it is unsavory, I've never met anyone who likes "that part" of the job.

 

JA

[Worker 11811]

Do a Google search for the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) guidelines on animal euthanasia.

 

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

 

This document talks about all the approved methods of euthanizing animals for various reasons. It does talk, specifically, about euthanizing fur bearers. It goes into a lot of detail about the pros and cons of each method.

 

From what I read, the recommended method is carbon dioxide and/or carbon monoxide gas.

 

It's a fairly long read but it is quite informative.

[Guest]

I'm not a fan of CO2. Put a bag over your face and breath into it. Really! You become short of breath and it is stressful. I've done it just to experience it. That's why the Association for the Assessment and Accreditation of Laboratory Animal Care (AAALAC) suggests OD.

[Foxb]

Worker, that is a useful link. Thank you. It's reassuring and interesting to know that so much investigation has been done on proper euthanasia methods.

 

I'm not comfortable with the methods for killing skunk that I have seen by some trappers. Apparently they spray even when shot in the head (muscle spasms), so some trappers use a long pole with a syringe on it to inject them with something like alcohol or acetone (this is what I have seen on trapping videos on Youtube but I don't know whether this applies to the majority of trappers). I looked up the effects of acetone poisoning and for a massive overdose, I'm supposing they don't seem so bad as it results in stupor, drowsiness, coma etc. but all the same, I don't like the thought of it being a slower death through unconventional means than other trapped animals get. I realise that part of it may be that I'm soft on skunks because I have pet skunks, but it does seem to me like they get a bit of a raw deal just because they can spray. HOWEVER, if they were in a serious amount of discomfort, I would expect them to spray anyway, so the fact that they don't reassures me a little. One of my skunks sprayed a tiny bit once when she bashed her nose hard, which was not something she perceived as a threat, but was obviously something that she found painful. I wouldn't mind the skunks being injected if it was with a listed substance from that list you linked to, Worker. Not that I'd buy skunk fur anyway.

 

Furless: I had that thought. I carefully read the details about the percentages of CO2 required to cause unconsciousness and death. I would hope that if it's used, the correct amount is used to cause unconsciousness rather than distress. Even though it's more dangerous for workers, I would prefer the use of CO.

 

 

 

Total aside, I just uploaded some pics of me in the rabbit fur jacket. They're in the sorting bin in the gallery, if anyone is curious.

[MrMockle]

Hello Em and all,

 

Firstly of course, along with others, welcome to the forum and I hope that you are enjoying your reading and discussions here. It is always pleasing to see more women and more people involved in the fur fashion or design trade in some way contributing in forums such as this, and hopefully as you have already seen the guys here have a fair few good points to raise. However, please allow me to raise a few counter points at from my perspective and opinion, even as means for further discussion if not to show that we are not all of the same mindset.

 

I for one do not feel that fur is particularly suitable as a item of clothing for men. Some fur trim on a collar or hood perhaps or a discretely lined jacket maybe, but I just don't think that a full fur coat or jacket ever really suits a man. I have always associated fur as a female item of clothing - and adore it as much as anyone else here as such - and while I have a few friends into fur who wear all manner of furs publicly, it's not something that appeals to me to do from any perspective. Not that it offends me - people can wear what they like - but from a style perspective I don't think it suits me and the sort of attire I wear, where casually or for special occasions. Each to their own of course but I wouldn't consider a guy wearing a full fur coat or jacket as particularly cool or trendy, however cool or trendy that wearer may be perceived by others or for things they have done or do. However I think something that might work is something a little more discrete and tailored or shapely than a huge chubby fox or raccoon garment which turns the wearer into a Flump. Maybe something with short hair or sheared allowing for a more shape to it: possibly a single or double breasted jacket maybe with a belt.

 

Fur is still very popular in the UK and in recent winters I have noticed a good revival with many more women wearing real full fur jackets, coats and wraps. I've documented a number of the sightings in previous posts here but certainly in places like London and Brighton, there is a growing number of younger women wearing fur, including local/British students and young women wearing "trendy" vintage rabbit and fox jackets as well as many European and Oriental migrants and tourists in all manner of furs too. This is a marked difference from the early to mid 2000s when fur sightings were far fewer and were mostly of middle aged to older women (often tourists) in long mink coats. The question of it being too warm for fur doesn't necessarily ring true, given that I've seen a few younger women and students wearing their furs on balmy June and July afternoons and evenings, and that in Spain I see a few women wearing furs in what for me is pretty mild temperatures of 10-15 Celsius. One thing it may well often be in the UK though is too wet for fur!

 

And it's a lovely jacket you have too so I hope it'll keep you warm this winter.

 

Regards,

Mr Mockle

[Guest]

Foxb: GREAT JACKET! I like it suede-side out. I'll bet it is nice and warm! It looks great fur-side out as well!

 

Great stockings too!

[Worker 11811]

Mr. M.

I think fur coats have to look right if or men to wear. It needs to look more "outdoorsy". I've always liked the "Hagrid" look.

 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m294/Cirrus01/RubeusHagrid.jpg

 

If you read the AVMA document, it says that CO2 can turn into carbonic acid when rit comes into contact with wet mucus membranes. That can cause animals to gasp and struggle to breathe. It also says that, properly done, CO2 causes unconsciousness in less than a minute and the animal expires only a few minutes later.

 

On the other hand, it says that burrowing animals are more resitant to hypoxia and, therefore, should not be euthanized with CO2. Skunks, being burrowing animals, are not good candidates for CO2 euthanasia.

 

People I know who have experience dealing with wildlife that has to be dispatched have told me that it is best to catch a skunk in a live trap then cover the whole trap with a heavy blanket. I'm told that a skunk won't spray in an enclosed space. Once it has calmed down enough, the skunk can be killed by injection. Anyhow, this is how I am told that game wardens get rid of skunks that have been determined to be nussiance animals.

[Guest]

Mr. Mockle:

 

I respectfully disagree. I think fur is not an exclusive feminine article of clothing. Most of society has decided that it is, but as you point out shorter fur types may work better as opposed to "big fluffy" fur types. That being said, what worker points out is accurate as well: more natural colors e.g. coyote. But with coyote we get into longer fur and the potential "puffy" look. I don't disasgree that the puffy look may look out of place on a man, but earth tone types of furs are best for men (as opposed to say, purple). So somewhere we need to figure out how to strike a balance between fur type and color.

 

Personally I think belts around furs looks feminine. I am smaller (5' 7", 130 pounds) so I can try on many women's furs. This is usueful because most mens clothes (NOT just furs) are too big for me. It is difficult for me just to find dress shirts with a 14 1/2" neck. I see many full length furs "that could work" for a man (or me). That is, more of a straight cut. Invariably whenever a belt goes around a full length coat, it fits the female body type (i.e. small waist) better than for a male (not so small waist).

 

My $0.02.

 

JA

[White Fox]

AKC has mentioned here that the biggest thing with men's furs is to get one that looks good on you. If you think it might look too feminine, then find another. Different colour. Different fur type. Different design. etc. You will certainly need a rather "Straight and plain" design.

 

Often folks here tend to mention that shorter jackets look better on men. I basically agree, however I would also mention that if I tried on a jacket, almost no matter what type of fur or such, it looks like a woman's coat on me. They mostly look terrible with a few exceptions. Parkas do look better, but they are indeed short.

 

On the other hand I can seem to wear most any kind of fur styled in a long coat and it will look good. Styles that others would NEVER think of as for a man, I have tried on and they looked fantastic! Again, I don't think that there is a height where men can and cannot wear fur. BUT I do think that there are many furs and coats that will not look good at all on certain individual men. Yet they will look good on others. Rather than thinking of the parameters like age or height etc., we need to just try on a coat to see how it looks on us.

 

There is one thing that I do not like in regards to sheared furs. I've had furriers tell me that this will not happen to coats, but it certainly DOES!!! The sheared coat is made to look "Perfect". The long haired coat is made to look just a tad "Wild". With wear, that sheared fur will gradually lose that perfect look. You clean it and it will come back. However, after awhile it will tend to lose that perfect look after fewer and fewer wearings. Again, I've had people disagree with this but I have had sheared beaver, and it is certainly true. After a few years it can get so that it needs cleaning after only three or four times wearing it. This does very much depend on colour but all colours are at least a bit like that.

 

I disagree with Mr M with guys wearing furs as well, but I know that I cannot change his mind and he knows that he cannot change mine. It is just the way that different people look at things. However, though I have had a comment or two like that on the street, I have found it very interesting how few the times that I have heard it mentioned.

[AKcoyote]

White Fox's post makes several good points.

 

Personally, I found the arctic style parka works well for me. I have tried longer furs, and they just do not look good on me. Finding the right fur (style, texture, color) can be a liberating experience. For several years I wore a coyote parka that not only I liked, but I frequently received very positive comments from women who liked the look. Unfortunately that parka has been permanently retired due to both hair breakage and the leather drying out. I now have a river otter parka and a black mouton lamb parka. I still receive the occasional comment, but they are more about the fact that I am wearing a fur parka rather than liking the look.

 

Back to WF's post - many of the problems that develop with sheared furs relate to the fact that they are sheared after having the guard hairs plucked out. The underwool of fur is more delicate and more easily damaged than the guard hairs of the pelt (which is why the longer and stiffer hairs are called guard hair). Once the guard hair is removed, the softer finer hair that remains is exposed to abrasion and other wear factors that it cannot tolerate for long.

[Worker 11811]

I agree that (men) wearing fur is more dependent on style.

 

I think women wearing fur is almost universally all right but many men don't look good in it. For those who do, I also think that they should be choosy as to which styles they wear.

 

Liberace could look good in a full length fur. I don't care if you think he was gay or not. The man just looked good wearing a fur coat. He had an extravagant, showy style and fur fit well with that style. Most men would not look good in a "Liberace fur." On the other hand, AK mentions an Arctic style parka. I think most men could look good in a fur like that.

 

Styles fall in and out of favor over time. In the 1920s, raccoon coats were fashionable for men to wear. Nowadays, that style is seen as hackneyed. In another 50 years, who knows what styles will be fashionable?

 

The bottom line is that some men can wear fur and others "shouldn't." Out of those who can, men need to be a lot more choosy when it comes wearing fur.

[Foxb]

It's actually really helpful for me to read all the different opinions on fur for menswear - thank you folks!

As a designer, I'm here to experiment, and my entire collection is about using typically 'non-menswear' fabrics and cuts. It's quite difficult. I'm not trying to design drag. Just something with a good balance that will make people look twice...